THE COURT: Bring in the jury, please.

(Jury Enters).

THE COURT: Call your next witness.

MR. MANDEL: The United States would call Bob

Ecoffey, Your Honor.

ROBERT ECOFFEY,

called as a witness, being first duly sworn, testified and

said as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. Sir, would you please state your name?

A. My name is Robert G. Ecoffey.

Q. Where are you from?

A. Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Q. Is that where you are originally from, sir?

A. No, I am from Pine Ridge, South Dakota.

Q. What is your occupation?

A. I am the Deputy Director for the Office of Law

Enforcement Services for the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Q. How long have you held that position, sir?

A. Approximately three years.

Q. Can you give me a recap of your law enforcement

background and training, sir?

A. Yes. I have approximately 28 years in law enforcement

starting back in 1975, and I have a Bachelor of Arts degree in

criminal justice from Chadron State College, graduate of FBI

National Academy. I have hundreds of hours in terms of

investigative homicide courses, in terms of forensic homicide

investigations, crime scene investigations, and sex crimes investigations.

Q. Over the course of years what law enforcement positions

have you held?

A. I first started my law enforcement career on the Pine

Ridge Indian Reservation in 1975 as a law enforcement trainee

working for the Tribe under the SETA program. I was assigned

to work with the Bureau of Indian Affairs police department

there in 1975. 1976 I started my official career with the

Bureau of Indian Affairs as a supervisory guard at the Pine

Ridge jail. From 1976 to 1977 I worked as a guard. From 1977

to 1981 the Oglala Sioux Tribe contracted the program there, I

switched over from the Bureau of Indian Affairs, went to work

for the Oglala Sioux Tribe where I served as the training

officer and captain of police. From 1981 to 1983 I was a

Special Agent with the Bureau of Indian Affairs on the Devil's

Lake Sioux reservation in Fort Totten, North Dakota. From

1984 to 1986 as a Special Agent again on the Pine Ridge

Reservation with the Bureau of Indian Affairs, stationed

there. Then from 1986 to I think 1989 I was a Special Agent

with the United States Forest Service on the Black Hills

National Forest and the Nebraska National Forest. Then in

1990 I got out of law enforcement for a couple of years, I

went back to work on the Pine Ridge Reservation at the Pine

Ridge agency as administrative manager for two years. Then in

1994 during President Clinton's first administration I had the

opportunity to be appointed as the first Indian United States

Marshal in the history of the Marshals service. I served in

that position for two years. 1996 I left that position,

returned back to Pine Ridge, and served as agency

superintendent for five years on Pine Ridge until taking this

job as the, originally was the Director of the Office of Law

Enforcement Services until about two months ago the Bureau of

Indian Affairs went through a reorganization and changed the

title to Deputy Director.

Q. In terms of your current job, Mr. Ecoffey, do you

supervise BIA law enforcement on reservations throughout the

United States?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Have you, yourself, personally been involved in homicide

investigations over the years?

A. Yes, I have. I have testified hundreds of times in

Federal Court proceedings concerning homicide investigations

throughout Indian country. Majority of those cases were on

the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.

Q. In particular did you become involved in an

investigation into the death of Anna Mae Pictou-Aquash?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you tell us, sir, what your first involvement in

that investigation was?

A. My first involvement in the investigation actually began

while I was stationed up in Devil's Lake, North Dakota. I got

a call from the FBI and was asked for their assistance. They

had picked up some information, or some leads, I led them down

into the Denver area. I was asked by the FBI to come along

and to assist in interviewing potential witnesses because of

my expertise in dealing with Indian people and dealing in the

area of homicide investigations.

Q. At that time did that pan out at all?

A. No, it didn't.

Q. When did you next get involved in the investigation?

A. Actually the information that really got me involved was

in I believe in 1996, September. Look at my note here for a minute.

Q. That's fine.

A. My actual involvement was in 1993 when I really got

involved in the case when information came forward when I was

the administrative manager at the Pine Ridge Agency.

Q. What type of information came forward at that time?

A. Individual by the name of Gladys Bissonette came to me

at the agency, I was friends with her, had been friends with

her for a number of years. She was heavily involved with the

Wounded Knee occupation and with the American Indian Movement.

I worked with her on some issues there at the agency, and then

I had asked her if she had any information pertaining to the

murder of Anna Mae Aquash. At that point in time she provided

me with the name of an individual that would likely cooperate

with me and come forward and provide additional information.

Q. Who was that individual?

A. Al Gates.

Q. Who is Al Gates?

A. Al Gates is a elderly gentleman who lives in Denver,

Colorado. He was a family relative of Gladys Bissonette. He

came forward, it was actually on June 11 of 1993 when Gladys

came forward with the information. Then on June 18 I had

asked her, I said will Mr. Gates cooperate with me and provide

information about Anna Mae's murder? And she said yeah, I

think he will. That was on June 11, 1993. On June 18, 1993

he showed up at my office at the Pine Ridge Agency.

Q. Let me interrupt you for a second. Without getting in

to what he had to say to you at that time, did he give you

information that moved you further along in this investigation?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Before we get in to that, up to that time had you had an

opportunity to review the evidence in the case and had you

done so?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What types of evidence was there available to review?

A. Basically after I got involved in the case when I was on

the Devil's Lake Indian Reservation and I moved back down to

Pine Ridge, it was around 1984, myself and my colleague

Special Agent Mitch Pourier with the Bureau of Indian Affairs

who also worked with me on the case for several years was

reviewing the case at my residence in Pine Ridge, and we

started to reconstruct the case to see if we could determine

what happened to her. And at that point in time we started

looking at the physical evidence that the agents and BIA

criminal investigators left in the file.

Q. Part of that evidence did you review the photographs?

A. Yes, we did.

(Exhibits 43-44 marked For identification.)

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. Sir, I have handed you what has been marked as Exhibits

number 43 and 44 and ask you if you are familiar with those

two photographs?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. What are those photographs of?

A. This photograph is a depiction of the crime scene of

Anna Mae Aquash. It is a photograph of a bracelet that was on

her wrist at the crime scene at the time the body was found.

Q. Are these actually blow ups of a portion of some of the

photographs that were originally taken?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. Were those made from, if you know, from the Polaroids?

A. Yes, these are made from the originals.

MR. MANDEL: Your Honor, I offer Exhibits 43 and 44

at this time.

MR. RENSCH: May I inquire for the purpose of making an objection.

THE COURT: You may.

MR. RENSCH: Have those pictures in any way been

enhanced by color or anything like that, sir?

A. No, they haven't.

MR. RENSCH: So those are a blow up of a close up of

the small Polaroid, is that right?

A. That's correct.

MR. RENSCH: No objection.

THE COURT: Exhibits 43 and 44 are received.

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. Sir, as you proceeded in this investigation at that

time, were you familiar with the location where the shooting

had taken place?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. How was it you became familiar with that?

A. Myself and Special Agent Mitch Pourier went out to the

scene, Roger Amiotte came out to the scene and showed us where

the body was.

Q. Sir, I am going to ask you to look at Exhibit No. 43

which I have displayed on the screen there, do you see that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Can you tell us what you observed about that photograph

when you looked at it?

A. One of the things, and I think that it really points out

on this photograph here, is what you can see is clear,

ligature markings on the wrist.

MR. RENSCH: I object, improper foundation for him

to make that conclusion.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. When you say ligature markings, what do you mean, sir?

A. Where this individual was tied or bound. Right above

the butterfly bracelet you can see clearly there is markings

in a straight line inconsistent with the bracelet that was

there that would indicate that she was tied up and that at the

time of her death.

Q. So you can draw on that screen just by touching it with

your fingertip. Can you sort of put a circle around the area

you are talking about?

A. (Witness marks exhibit).

Q. What would be the significance of those ligature markings?

A. The significance would be that at the time of her, that

she was shot and killed, and at the time she was shot and

killed that she was tied up at the time.

Q. Why do you say that she would have been tied up at the time?

A. Because these are post mortem markings, means the heart

stopped beating, the blood stopped flowing through her system,

and those marks were left as a result of no blood going

through her system at the time.

Q. I want to move onto the time -- sir, at the time you met

with Al Gates, did the discussions you had with him lead you

to another suspect in the matter?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. Who was that suspect?

A. It actually led us to the defendant here, Mr. Arlo

Looking Cloud, John Graham, John Boy Patton, and Theda Nelson,

Theda Clark.

Q. Specifically as to the defendant Arlo Looking Cloud, did

you take some actions to attempt to obtain information from him?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you tell us initially what you did in that regard, sir?

A. My initial interview with him was conducted at the

Denver County jail. I had contacted detective, or Detective

Abe Alonzo from the Denver police department had contacted me

and said that Mr. Looking Cloud was in custody on some local

charges, and that he was being held. And at that point in

time I had learned information through my investigation that

Mr. Looking Cloud was either an adoptive relative of Theda

Clark, Theda Nelson, in an Indian way that she at some point

in time had said that she had adopted him and that he might

have some information pertaining to the murder of Anna Mae Aquash.

Q. Did you make contact with Mr. Looking Cloud?

A. Yes, on September 6, 1994 was my first interview with

Mr. Looking Cloud, and that was conducted by myself and

Detective Abe Alonzo at the Denver County jail in Denver, Colorado.

Q. Mr. Looking Cloud was in custody at that time?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. Was he informed of his rights?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. Did he talk to you regarding this incident at that time?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Can you tell us what the conversation was, what you

asked him and what the responses were?

A. Basically I introduced myself to Mr. Looking Cloud, I

introduced Detective Abe Alonzo. I told him I was the United

States Marshal for the Federal District of South Dakota, that

I was conducting an investigation into the murdered of Anna

Mae Aquash. I told him that the information had been obtained

that he might have some knowledge as to, and some involvement

pertaining to the case, and that I would like his cooperation

in resolving the matter.

Q. Did he agree to speak to you?

A. Yes, he did. He said that he didn't know anything about

Anna Mae Aquash. I told him that the murder occurred around

the first or second week of December in 1975. He said he

didn't know Anna Mae Aquash. Matter of fact, he said that he

wasn't in Denver at the time, that he thought that he was in

Florida during December of 1975. At that point in time I told

him that I had information that I had seen at the Denver

police intelligence section where police officers had stopped

him outside of Troy Lynn Irving's residence on the night of

September 13th, 1975. At that point in time he said he didn't

know anything about it. I said if he was willing to

cooperate, that maybe the local prosecutor would be willing to

drop the local charges on him. He said that he would take it

under consideration.

Q. That was the extent of that first discussion?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to jump ahead a bit and ask you if you had

another discussion with Mr. Looking Cloud at a later date that

resulted in a trip up to South Dakota?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. If you could, can you tell us first of all how that

contact came about, what happened?

A. Around July 24th of 1975 I got a call --

Q. Excuse me, '95?

A. 1995, excuse me. I got a call from Detective Abe

Alonzo, and I also at that point in time had a deputy, United

States Marshal by the name of Rick Iannucci working with me on

the case. Detective Alonzo said Mr. Looking Cloud was again

in jail serving some time on local charges in Denver and that

he was in custody. At that point in time I asked him if they

would go talk to him and see if he would cooperate, and take

part in a trip back up to South Dakota here and to show us

what happened to Anna Mae Aquash, the places they took her,

and the places they held her, and what route they took out to

the crime scene where she was killed. Detective Alonzo and

Iannucci at that point in time talked with the defendant here,

Mr. Looking Cloud, Mr. Looking Cloud agreed to come up here to

South Dakota. He came up on the 25th of July. At that point

in time on the 24th of July, on the 25th we picked him up here

at the Pennington County jail. At that point in time I

advised him of his rights again, asked him if he had

representation from any attorney. And he said no, that he

didn't, but he said he was willing to cooperate and to show us

where they had Anna Mae Aquash prior to her murder.

Q. Just to clarify a couple of things. When you say he

came up, he was in custody when he came up, is correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. So he didn't come up on his own?

A. That's correct.

Q. Secondly, so we are certain, do you recognize

Mr. Looking Cloud and see him in the courtroom today?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Could you describe where he is seated and what he is wearing?

A. Sitting right here with the sweater on and glasses.

MR. MANDEL: Ask the record reflect the witness has

identified the defendant, Your Honor?

THE COURT: It may.

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. Now after you went through the procedure where you read

him his rights and he agreed to cooperate with you, can you

tell us what next took place?

A. Yes. After we talked to him at the Pennington County

jail he agreed to cooperate. We read him his rights, I was in

my vehicle which was the U.S. Marshal vehicle, Detective

Alonzo and Deputy U.S. Marshal Iannucci. We loaded him up at

the Pennington County jail and then took him around here. He

agreed to take us around in Rapid City here and show us where

they held her. We picked him up at the jail, he took us out

in to North Rapid City at the Knollwood Apartment complex.

Q. You say Knollwood?

A. Yes. Apartment complex. He told us that he pulled up

there with Theda Clark and John Boy Patton, that they had Anna

Mae, that they had tied her up in Denver, Colorado, that they

brought her up there, that they pulled in up at that apartment

complex, and that at that point in time they went in to what

was considered an apartment in which nobody was living at at

the time, and they held her there when they got there.

Q. He take you to any other locations in Rapid City?

A. From there he said, well, we took her from there. And I

asked him did you go to the Wounded Knee Legal Defense office

here in Rapid City, and I told him that we had information

pertaining to interrogation there of her, and he said no. He

says that he wasn't involved in taking her to that house.

Matter of fact, he said that he had left that apartment for a

while and then he had returned.

Q. Did he indicate to you what happened after he had

returned to the apartment?

A. He said Theda was very angry with him, screamed at him

and chewed him out, wanted to know where he went. Then he

said he stayed there for the rest of the day. And then he

said that night when it got dark, then they left Rapid City,

they tied her up, they put her in the back of the car, they

left Rapid City and they took her down through the Pine Ridge

Indian Reservation up through Wanblee.

Q. Did he tell you about any other place they traveled to?

A. He said that they had stopped at a residence, they were

getting low on gas. He said they stopped at a residence which

was a relative of his at the Potato Creek Housing on the Pine

Ridge Reservation, they had borrowed some gas, and then after

borrowing the gas they went on up through Wanblee.

Q. Did you travel to Wanblee with Mr. Looking Cloud?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Who was present when you did that?

A. Myself, Detective Abe Alonzo, and Deputy United States

Marshal Rick Iannucci.

Q. Was one of the purposes out there to take some

photographs of the scene where this happened?

A. Yes. Mr. Looking Cloud agreed to provide basically a

reenactment of what had happened with Ms. Aquash at the crime

scene there.

(Exhibit 1, 2, 3 & 15 marked For identification.)

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. I have handed you what are marked Exhibits 1, 2, 3 and

15. First of all, are those all photographs that were taken

on that day?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. Who actually took the photographs?

A. Detective Abe Alonzo.

Q. They show various views of the crime scene?

A. Yes, they do.

MR. MANDEL: I offer Exhibits 1, 2, 3 and 15, Your Honor.

MR. RENSCH: No objection.

THE COURT: Exhibits 1, 2, 3 and 15 are received.

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. Sir, first showing you Exhibit 1, can you tell us what

that shot is, where it is shot from at the scene?

A. Exhibit 1 was shot basically from the roadway, which

would show the embankment that was being walked to.

Q. And the time these photographs were being taken, did

Mr. Looking Cloud indicate to you anything about what had

happened that night when they arrived there at the scene?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. What did he tell you?

A. He said that they went to junction 73 and 44, that they

drove about three miles north of that junction down into the

bottom of the Bad Lands there. He said that they pulled over

along side of the road, said that, I believe he said he was

sitting in the front on the passenger side, that Theda Nelson

Clark was driving, and that John Boy was sitting in the back

seat, and Anna Mae was tied up in the back. He said that

Theda pulled over on the side of the road there. He had us

pull over right about this location, which was actually about

a hundred yards from the actual crime scene itself.

Q. Is Exhibit 2 another photograph that you took out there?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Who are the three individuals pictured in the photograph?

A. The person in the front is the defendant Arlo Looking Cloud.

Q. That's in the white T shirt?

A. That's correct. I am in the middle and Deputy United

States Marshal Rick Iannucci is in the back.

Q. That's heading over toward the scene?

A. Yes. He was basically reenacting saying we got her out

of the car, we took her and this is how we walked.

Q. Sir, taking a look at Exhibit No. 3, can you tell me

about that photograph?

A. That photograph there is actually right near the crime

scene there. At that point in time the defendant, Mr. Looking

Cloud, was explaining what had happened as they got her up to

the scene.

Q. What did he explain?

A. He said that they, after they got her out of the car,

they walked her through the ditch as exhibited in the other

photo. When they got her up here he said Anna Mae said that

she wanted to pray first. She said that when she said that,

said that she started to pray. He said John Boy pulled out

the gun, put it at the back of her head and pulled the trigger.

Q. Are you standing there at the location where that

happened according to Mr. Looking Cloud?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what about Exhibit 15?

A. Exhibit 15 is just a continuation of basically his

reenactment. At that point in time he was telling the story,

he said after John Boy shot Anna Mae in the back of the head,

he said that he wasn't sure what was going to happen to him,

so he asked John Boy for the gun. He says that John Boy

handed him the gun, he thought he might be shot next, so he

took the gun and he fired directly into the ground emptying

the gun.

Q. Did he point to the location where he said he fired it

into the ground?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Where was that?

A. Just basically straight down. Not down where Anna Mae

fell, but on the top of the bank where they were, where we

were standing. He said I fired into the ground, emptied the

gun and handed it back and we walked back to the car.

Q. So up there on the top of that Bad Lands wall there?

A. That's correct.

Q. At some point as part of your investigation did you go

out to that same crime scene with a metal detector?

A. I didn't go out to the crime scene with a metal

detector, but I had a couple of my agents go out with a metal

detector. After he gave the story, had them go out and go

through this whole area, the location, and the exact location

where Roger Amiotte pointed out where the body was found to

see if they could recover any of these bullets the defendant

said he fired into the ground.

Q. Were they able to do so, sir?

A. No, they weren't.

Q. After you took the photographs at the scene, did you

have any more discussion with the defendant regarding this matter?

A. I asked him, I said now Arlo, you are telling me that

John Boy handed you the gun? And he said yes. And you are

telling that you fired into the ground? And he said yes. So

I asked him, I said or is it, aren't you just trying to

explain why your fingerprints would be on that weapon? And he

said -- I said isn't it a possibility that you are the person

who shot her. And he said no, I didn't shoot her, but I just

fired the gun into the ground and then I handed the gun back

to John Boy.

Q. As far as the journey you made with the defendant on

that day, did you also attempt to locate the weapon?

A. Yes, we did. Enroute back to Rapid City he claims that

they buried the gun underneath a bridge between Interior and

Wanblee, and we stopped at a location where there was a bridge

on the BIA route there. He said they buried the weapon

underneath that bridge. We got out with him, we went down

underneath the bridge, and looked at the area and different

things, and he could not at that point in time point out where

the weapon was buried.

Q. Was there any further discussion on that day relative to this?

A. No, there wasn't.

Q. Did you have an occasion to conduct another interview of

the defendant in March of 2003?

A. Yes. On March 27, 2003.

Q. Can you tell us what the circumstances of that interview were?

A. At that point in time the defendant here, Arlo Looking

Cloud, was indicted by a federal grand jury. A federal

warrant had been issued on him for the first degree murder of

Anna Mae Aquash. I was in Albuquerque, New Mexico on the

27th, I received a telephone call from Detective Abe Alonzo.

MR. RENSCH: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Not yet. Overruled.

A. I received a telephone call from Detective Abe Alonzo

informing me that he had arrested the defendant Arlo Looking Cloud.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. I immediately jumped on the airplane in Albuquerque, New

Mexico and flew to Denver, Colorado so I would have an

opportunity to interview the defendant here.

Q. Did the defendant agree to be interviewed at that time?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Can you tell us what the -- first of all, what the

location of that interview was?

A. My interview was conducted at the Denver police

department, I believe in the narcotics section, and we had him

in an interview room there that was video and audio taped.

(Exhibit 45 marked For identification.)

Q. Sir, I have handed you what has been marked Exhibit No.

45. I will ask you if you recognize that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What is that?

A. This is a video tape of the interview conducted with the

defendant here, Arlo Looking Cloud.

Q. Did you watch that same videotape again today?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. First of all, does it accurately reflect the interview

that took place?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Are there any parts of the interview that were taken out?

A. No.

Q. Without getting into the transcription on the bottom,

was there anything that was added in terms of what was said or shown?

A. No.

Q. Does that tape also have what I will call a kind of

running scroll line on the bottom showing a transcript of what was said?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. That is something that was added to the tape later?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you listen to the tape and compare what is shown on

that scroll line with what is heard on the videotape?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Does it accurately reflect what is on the videotape?

A. It does.

MR. MANDEL: Your Honor, I offer Exhibit 45 at this time.

MR. RENSCH: I have no objection, just so the jury

is instructed about transcripts in the course of the videotape.

THE COURT: Don't start it yet. Exhibit 45 is received.

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. Again at that interview was Mr. Looking Cloud informed

of his rights?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. Did he agree to speak to you again regarding this incident?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Generally in this recorded interview overall I know

there is detail differences, but in general did he tell you

pretty much the same thing he had related to you in the past

regarding this?

A. Yes, he did.

MR. MANDEL: Your Honor, leave of the Court I would

ask to play the tape at this time.

THE COURT: Just a minute. Before playing the tape

I want to give the jury an instruction. There is a

typewritten transcript of the tape recording you heard. The

transcript which apparently is a script that appears

underneath the tape, is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

THE COURT: Attempts to apparently identify the

speakers engaged in the conversation, is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You are permitted to have the transcript

for the limited purposes of helping you to follow the

conversation as you listen to the recording, and also to help

you keep track of the speakers. The transcript, however, is

not evidence, the tape recording itself is the primary

evidence of its own contents. So any script that has been put

on the bottom of the tape itself is not evidence even though

it may now be a part of the tape because it was added later as

an aid to you. You are specifically instructed that whether

the transcript correctly or incorrectly reflects the

conversation or the identity of the speakers, it is entirely

for you to decide based upon what you have heard about the

preparation of the transcript and upon your own examination of

the transcript in relation to what you hear on the tape

recording. If you decide that the transcript is in any

respect incorrect or unreliable, you should disregard it to

that extent. Differences in meaning between what you hear in

the recording and reading the transcript may be caused by such

things as the inflection in the speakers voice. You should,

therefore, rely on what you hear rather than what you read

when there is a difference, and so you won't have a transcript

that you will hold in your hand and read, but instead the

transcript will be superimposed on the bottom of the tape.

You may proceed.

MR. MANDEL: Just to clarify the record, I guess we

have the tape that is marked Exhibit 45 actually loaded onto

the compute and that is how it is going to be played rather

than the physical tape itself.

THE COURT: I see.

(Videotape Played).

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. Is what you saw on the screen here now the same as what

is on the video we put in evidence?

A. Yes.

MR. MANDEL: No further questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RENSCH:

Q. Sir, if I ask a question that seems confusing, would you

stop me so we are understanding each other?

A. Yes, I will.

Q. Words can be pretty important in law enforcement, can't

they, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. Because we use words to describe things that have

happened, true?

A. That's true.

Q. And when you write the reports that you write, you use

words to write them, don't you, sir?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you record the things that happen throughout your

law enforcement career in police reports, don't you, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. Now you have filed many numbers of investigative reports

or reports in this case, have you not?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And each time you had some dealing with this case you

would prepare a report, wouldn't you?

A. Many more cases.

Q. As it relates to this case, Anna Mae Aquash case, you

certainly would be filing reports, would you not?

A. Yes.

Q. On July 25th, 1995 you were with Arlo Looking Cloud when

he willingly went out to the scene of this killing and he

showed you what happened, didn't he, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. And what he showed you happened was essentially the same

thing that he just talked about on this video that we have

seen, is that correct, sir?

A. In the video there he did not mention that when they, at

the scene on the 25th, when they took him out there he said

that Anna Mae wanted to pray first and then Arlo, then John

Boy took the gun and put it in the back of her head an shot her.

Q. Other than that, though, his statements at the scene

were consistent with what he said on this video that we have

just watched?

A. Fairly consistent.

Q. Do you have any specific inconsistencies that you have noted?

A. No.

Q. Can you think of any specific instances as you are sitting there?

A. Just that he added more in the video. The one occasion

there when he said when they crossed to the fence, he said

when we crossed the fence, he said I think she knew then what

was going to happen.

Q. Incidentally, on July 25, 1995, you were the United

States Marshal for this district, is that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. In your capacity as the United States Marshal there is

equipment available to you that is known as a wire, would you agree?

A. Yes.

Q. Meaning you could have had a recording device on your

body to record just exactly what he said out there as he was

standing on that embankment, isn't that true?

A. That's true.

Q. Did you choose not to use such a recording device?

A. I chose not to.

Q. So before you met with him you thought about using a

recording device, is that right?

A. No.

Q. Well, you just said you chose not to use one. Did you

choose not to use the recording device?

A. I never thought about using a recording device. I had

witnesses there with me that stood there at the scene.

Q. If you don't use a recording device -- well, you correct

me if I am wrong, but it is easier for you to put your slant

on what was said, isn't it, sir?

A. I am not putting any slant on what was said.

Q. If you wanted to put a slant on it, it would be easier

for you to do so if there was no tape recording of his

statement, is that not so?

A. If I choose to put a slant, that's true.

Q. Did you ask any of the other agents that were in your

employ on July 25th to tape record anything that Arlo Looking

Cloud had said?

A. No, we didn't.

Q. You have told this jury that Arlo said to you that day

we got her out of the car, we took her, and this is where we

walked, is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. When you prepare a report, though, of your conversation

with Arlo on that day, you note that he says that John Boy

took her out of the car, don't you, sir?

A. He said John Boy took her out and then I got out and

went with them.

Q. And that John Boy told Looking Cloud to come along, is

that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And that Looking Cloud then reenacted what had occurred,

correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. So Arlo did not say to you we got her out of the car,

did he, sir?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. He said that we got her out of the car?

A. At one point in time he said, in his conversation with

him, he said we stopped, John Boy got out, I got out, and we

got her out of the car. And then he said I will take you, I

will show you where we went with her, and we went walking in

to the ditch.

Q. If Arlo Looking Cloud is saying we got her out of the

car, using the word we, that is pretty important, isn't it, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. Because that would show that he was helping if he used

the word we, right?

A. That's correct.

Q. So if you were to have heard something like that, your

practice is to note important matters in your report, isn't

that true?

A. It is. If you are referring to the report I wrote on

the 25th, that wasn't a verbatim report of everything that was

said, that was only a report to detail the locations that he

took us.

Q. Well, when you write a report you want to note the

important facts, don't you?

A. Yes.

Q. You would agree that it is an important fact that

Mr. Looking Cloud said we took her out of the car, right?

A. All I remember is that that is what he said.

Q. Would you agree that that is an important fact that he

said we took her out of the car?

A. That is an important fact.

Q. Yet in your report you did not note that he said we took

her out of the car?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. You in fact say John Boy got out of the front of the

vehicle and then took Anna Mae out of the back, isn't that

what you put in your report.

A. That's what I put in my report.

Q. You wrote this report on what date?

A. I think it was probably the next day.

Q. So that was when these events were much fresher in your

mind than they are now if it is the next day, can we agree upon that?

A. Yes.

Q. You also indicated that you had some people go out to

the scene and use a metal detector to try to find some

bullets, is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. What year did that occur?

A. That occurred in 2003.

Q. 2003. How many years after this killing was that?

A. Twenty-seven years.

Q. Twenty-seven years. Now you were aware, I mean you grew

up in this region, didn't you, sir?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. The Bad Lands have become the Bad Lands because of

erosion, haven't they?

A. Yes.

Q. And if we had testimony in this record from Roger

Amiotte that these cliffs have eroded through time, would you

be in any position to disagree with that?

A. No, I wouldn't.

Q. You don't know how similar the top of that bank is to

the way it was back in 1975, do you, sir?

A. No, I don't.

Q. You don't know if three feet have eroded off of that, do

you, sir?

A. No, I don't.

Q. So if he had shot into the ground at the top of the base

of that cliff, we will call it, it is possible that that could

have eroded and fallen down through the years, is that not so?

A. That's correct.

Q. You, sir, you are not claiming to be any medical expert, are you?

A. No, I am not a medical expert.

Q. You don't have any training in medicine, do you?

A. No, I don't.

Q. You don't have any training in the functions of the

human body, do you?

A. No, I don't.

Q. You don't have any training in the chemical processes

that occur in the human body, do you, sir?

A. No, I don't.

Q. You don't have any training in what happens to a body

after a person has passed away, do you, sir?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What is that training?

A. That training is from forensic training that I have

received from crime, sexual crime investigation, from dealing

with hundreds of homicides that I have dealt with, hangings

that I have seen during my 28 years to see what effects that

are on the body after a crime like this.

Q. You have told us as we looked at the picture of her left

hand that had the bracelet on it that the black marks that

appear in one of the Polaroid photographs in your estimation

could be ligature marks, is that correct, sir?

A. That's correct.

Q. But you don't know for sure whether those are ligature

marks, do you?

A. I would say that it is.

Q. You would, okay. Well, let's test your knowledge of the

human body after it dies. Do you know what livor mortise is?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Well, if we had a pathologist come in here and talk to

us about viewing Ms. Pictou-Aquash's body, do you think that

the pathologist would know more about the human body than you?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you aware of the fact that the pathologist who

reviewed this body found no other indication of injuries other

than one bullet hole?

A. What pathologist are you talking about?

Q. Talking about Dr. Garry Peterson?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, would you say that Dr. Garry Peterson is in a

better position to, since he actually viewed the body, to

determine what would be an injury and what would not?

A. The fact that the hands were not with the body when he

did the second post mortem he couldn't tell whether the

ligature markings were there or not.

Q. Well, he's never told us that, do you know that, sir?

A. I don't know that.

Q. When they cut the wrists and hands off of a body it

leaves what is not cut, would you agree?

A. That's correct.

Q. Sure, and those black marks that you talked of go up the

arm, don't they, sir?

A. The black marks, I think if you put the photo back up,

you are talking about some scratch marks which are post mortem

down below the bracelet, which is probably scratches from

either being drug in the weeds, and then above the bracelet

you can see the ligature markings.

Q. You say probably scratches from being drug in the weeds,

is that what you are telling us?

A. That's correct.

Q. You don't know one way or another whether those are

scratches from being drug in the weeds, do you, sir?

A. I believe she was shot at the top of the bank, she was

untied and pushed over the edge.

Q. We know what you believe, and you have told us that you

looked at some photographs that were 25 years old and you have

come to conclusions. But you don't have any other evidence

that indicates that those, where those scratches came from, do

you, sir.

A. No, I don't.

Q. Likewise, you don't have any other evidence that

indicates where the black markings came from, do you, sir?

A. I believe they are consistent with the fact that we have

testimony that she was tied up, and that that was from the

rope marks, or what ever they used to tie her up with.

Q. So that is your belief that you have arrived at through

your years of experience and things of that nature?

A. That's correct.

Q. If livor mortis has been testified to in front of this

jury as being the settling of blood at a low point on the

body, if that wrist were at a low point when this body was

laying there, would you agree that that could have been from

the settling of blood?

A. No, not at all.

Q. You don't have any medical background to say otherwise,

though, do you, sir?

A. No, I don't.

Q. When you spoke with Arlo Looking Cloud on this videotape

that we just watched, did you ever lie to him?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Is it your practice to lie during an interrogation?

A. No, it isn't.

Q. You thanked him at the end for his cooperation, didn't you, sir?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you meant it, didn't you?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Now not only did he speak to you on July 25th of 1995,

and on the time in 2003 when we just watched up here on the

screen, but you in fact had spoken to Mr. Looking Cloud about

these events in November of 1994, is that not so?

A. I am not sure whether I can mention that.

Q. I am asking you?

MR. MANDEL: I ask that we approach on this matter.

THE COURT: Very well.