Testimony of Troy Lynn Yellow Wood in the
Trial of Arlo Looking Cloud
February, 2004

MR. McMAHON: Troy Lynn Yellow Wood.


called as a witness, being first duly sworn, testified and

said as follows:


Q. Would you state your name, please?

A. Troy Lynn Yellow Wood.

Q. Where do you live?

A. Denver, Colorado.

Q. How long have you lived there?

A. More than thirty years.

Q. What was the address that you lived in in November and

December, 1975?

A. 4494 Pecos Number 1.

Q. What type of a residence was that?

A. It was a triplex with three apartments all in one unit.

Q. And you had one of the units?

A. I had the first unit.

Q. How big was it?

A. It was a three bedroom house with a bathroom, a kitchen,

dining room, living room.

Q. How many bedrooms?

A. Three.

Q. On what level?

A. They were all on the, on the upper floor level.

Q. Was there an upstairs?

A. No.

Q. Was there a basement?

A. Yes.

Q. How big was the basement?

A. It was as big as the entire upper floor.

Q. So it was all one room down there?

A. Yes.

(Exhibit 12 marked For identification.)


Q. I have laid Exhibit 12 in front of you, can you tell me

what that is a picture of?

A. A picture looks like at 4494 Pecos.

Q. Where you lived?

A. Yes.

MR. McMAHON: Offer Exhibit 12.

MR. RENSCH: No objection.

THE COURT: Exhibit 12 is received.


Q. Do you know Mr. Arlo Looking Cloud?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. How long have you known him?

A. For more than thirty years.

Q. Is he present in the courtroom?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. What is he wearing?

A. A checkered erred shirt.

Q. Would you point him out?

A. He is sitting right there.

MR. McMAHON: May the record reflect she pointed to

the defendant. Your Honor?

THE COURT: It may.


Q. How old are you?

A. I am 54 years old.

Q. How old is Mr. Looking Cloud?

A. I think 50, but I am not sure. Forty-nine maybe, I

don' t know.

Q. So you are close to the same age?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you grow up together?

A. No. I never knew Arlo until he was in his late teens,

middle teens maybe.

Q. You were living in Denver at the time?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he living in Denver at the time?

A. He lived in Aurora.

Q. And the two of you became very close?

A. We have been friends for a long time.

Q. And you described that friendship as very close?

A. Yes.

Q. And you described it was he was one of your best friends?

A. Yes, he was like my brother.

Q. Did he stay at your house?

A. He never lived at my house, but he has always been

welcome in my home, and he comes and goes when ever he feels

like it.

Q. Did other members of AIM come and go and stay at your

house in Denver?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it used as a safe house, for lack of a better word?

A. It was just a home that people were welcome in. I don't

know that it was a safe house. But it was a home that many

people came to and passed through.

Q. Were you a member of AIM?

A. I was, and I am.

Q. Approximately what year did you start attending AIM events?

A. I think in 1970, maybe late '69. I am not sure. I

think '69-70.

Q. Was there a AIM chapter in Denver?

A. Yes, there was.

Q. So I am assuming you attended events in Denver?

A. Yes.

Q. And other places?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you and Mr. Looking Cloud attend events together?

A. I think so.

Q. Did you travel together?

A. Yes.

Q. And those would have been to AIM events, I suppose some

of them in South Dakota?

A. Yes.

Q. And other places around the country?

A. I am not sure. Maybe Albuquerque, I am not sure.

Q. Would the two of you ride together?

A. Yes.

Q. Would other people go with you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever know Anna Mae Aquash?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you get to know her?

A. I saw her at many of the different gatherings that we

all attended through the years, you know, during the time that

I knew her. It was mostly in passing.

Q. So you would see her at the various AIM events also?

A. Um-hum.

Q. And did you know John Boy Graham?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. He was also known as John Boy Patton I believe, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you know him?

A. Not very long. During the time that he lived with Angie

Begay I knew him.

Q. And they lived in Denver?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever travel to any AIM events with them?

A. To the sundance. I don't know about, I don't remember

about AIM events, but I traveled with them to the sundance at

Green Grass, South Dakota.

Q. And did .Arlo Looking Cloud ride with you?

A. No.

Q. Was he at that sundance?

A. No.

Q. Did you have an occasion to see Anna Mae Aquash in

November of 1975?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you see her?

A. My Aunt Theda brought her to my home.

Q. When you talked about your Aunt Theda, who are you

talking about?

A. Theda Clark is my mother's sister.

Q. So she is literally your aunt?

A. Yes.

Q. Approximately what time in November was that, that she

brought her to your home?

A. I don't know the exact date, but it was late November.

It was before the week of Thanksgiving. I don't know the dates.

Q. When she brought Anna Mae to your home was anyone with them?

A. Her husband.

Q. Theda Clark's husband?

A. She was married to Julian Pokrywka.

Q. Was anyone else with them?

A. Possibly her children, I don't remember.

Q. Why was Anna Mae being brought to your house?

A. She said, Aunt Theda said for safe keeping, I guess. I

don't know, just because she needed a place to stay that was

safe, and so she brought her there, I don't know. Other than

that, I don't know.

Q. Did she tell you anything other than to just let her

stay with you?

A. She asked me to watch out for her and not to let

anything happen to her.

Q. Who was living with you at the time?

A. Just me and my children.

Q. When Anna Mae was brought to your house by Theda Clark,

did she have any suitcases with her?

A. She had nothing.

Q. No personal belongings of any kind?

A. No.

Q. Nothing other than the clothes she was wearing?

A. I think she had like a small, like maybe a paper bag or

something like that with, I don't know really, not anything of.

Q. Where had she come from, do you know?

A. She told me she came from Pierre, South Dakota.

Q. Pierre, South Dakota?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Did she discuss with you the fact that she had jumped bond?

A. Yes.

Q. So you knew she was on the run?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did Anna Mae stay with you?

A. I don't know the exact extent or length of the time.

Possibly two weeks, ten days, I don't really know.

Q. Was it December when she left?

A. It was early December, yes.

Q. Did the two of you have a chance to visit while she was

staying with you?

A. Yes.

Q. What was her state of mind?

A. She was nervous, she was paranoid, she was, I don't

know, she was sad.

Q. When you say she was paranoid, what do you mean?

A. She felt that -- well, she told me that people were

accusing her of giving other people up, and that they were

blaming her for all these different busts, or whatever you

want to call them. That's what we called them, and she felt

bad that people thought that she was a snitch.

Q. Did she tell you she was not a snitch?

A. I don't know that she ever really actually said that she

wasn't, but it was understood. I mean I understood that, and

she didn't have to tell me that she wasn't, I never believed

that she was.

Q. Was she scared?

A. Yes. I don't know that she -- like when anybody came,

she would go to the bathroom and just close the door. She

didn't want to see anybody.

Q. Did you have any discussions with her about any

relationships she had with other men?

A. Yes.

Q. And who was that?

A. Dennis Banks.

Q. Did you know that relationship was going on while it was

going on?

A. No.

Q. Not until she told you?

A. Not until she told me.

Q. Did she ever mention to you any individuals that were

accusing her of being an informant?

A. Not specifically.

Q. Did she ever mention any instances where she might have

been confronted by anyone?

A. She mentioned one incident regarding Peltier, but other

than that I don't really remember anybody else.

Q. Did she mention where that happened?

A. I think she said in Mexico, but I don't remember the

exact place.

Q. Did she tell you what happened?

A. She said that there was some --

MR. RENSCH: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. McMAHON: Goes to state of mind, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I will allow it in part with a limiting

instruction again, which I have given you with regard to this

same kind of testimony before. It is not for the truth of the

matter stated, but rather it is with regard to the state of

mind of Ms. Aquash and what she would have manifested. You

may answer.


Q. I think the question was what did she tell you about

that confrontation?

A. She said that people were distancing themselves from

her, or were mistrustful of her, or I don't know. They

weren't treating her the same as they had before.

Q. You mentioned a particular incidence that she told you

about and mentioned Mr. Peltier, that's what I am asking you about?

A. She said that Leonard had held a gun to her head and had

asked her, and told her that everybody was saying she was a

snitch, and asked her. I think she said something like he

wanted to hear it from the horse's mouth. She said that she

just, she cried. She told him, you know, if you believe that

about me, then I give you permission to pull the trigger. But

don't threaten me, don't do this to me if. If you think that

about me, then just get it over with, but either kill me or

defend me.

Q. Did there come a time while Anna Mae was staying at your

home that there was a gathering of people to discuss her?

A. There was a gathering of people. I didn't know that

they were there to discuss her, but a lot of people came to my

home and they, Aunt Theda was there, and they had a meeting in

my living room.

Q. Did you hear what the meeting was about?

A. No.

Q. You have no idea what it was about?

A. No.

Q. You never went in the room at all?

A. I went in to give them coffee. I took a tray of coffee

and sugar and cream and set it on the coffee table.

Q. And you didn't hear any discussions while you were in there?

A. No. I kind of think that things kind of quieted down

when I came in, they were kind of murmuring and talking

amongst themselves, and the only thing that I --

MR. RENSCH: She is narrating, Your Honor, objection.

THE COURT: No, overruled.


Q. Go ahead.

A. The only thing that I remember is that I looked up and I

saw Ernesto Vijil.

MR. RENSCH: Object on the same hearsay grounds I

objected before.

THE COURT: Sustained.


Q. Did you discover the meeting was about whether or not

she was an informant?

A. No, I don't know what the meeting was about. I never

knew what that meeting was about.

Q. How long did the meeting last?

A. Not very long. I don't know, less than a half an hour,

maybe fifteen, twenty minutes, I don't know. I don't remember.

Q. You said Theda Clark was there?

A. Yes.

Q. Who else was there?

A. Ernesto Vijil.

Q. Who is that?

A. He was Corky Gonzalez's right-hand man, and Corky

Gonzalez from the Crusade for Justice was there as well.

Q. And who else?

A. I am not sure.

Q. You don't remember who was having this meeting in your home?

A. No, there was, there were many people, I don't know who

they all were, those are the people that I can remember.

Q. You remember three out of the many people?

A. Um-hum.

Q. And you served coffee to them?

A. Um-hum.

Q. You can't remember anyone else?

A. I didn't even remember that meeting until I went before

the grand jury and I was questioned about it, I had forgotten

about that totally.

Q. You forgot about the meeting?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Isn't this the meeting where Anna Mae was taken from

your home?

A. Yes.

Q. And you forgot about that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Was Mr. Looking Cloud there?

A. I think he was.

Q. You have talked to him about this incident, haven't you?

A. Talked with him about it? Not really.

Q. Pardon me?

A. Not really.

Q. You haven't ever talked with Mr. Looking Cloud about

what happened?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever have a meeting with Mr. Looking Cloud and

Kamook Nichols?

A. Yes.

Q. And didn't you talk about this then?

A. Kamook asked questions, and a little bit of discussion around it.

Q. Well, you were in on that conversation, weren't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Didn't you go meet with Mr. Looking Cloud, you and he

and John Trudell have a meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. And wasn't it discussed then?

A. Yes, but I wasn't a part of the discussion. I was only,

I mean I was there, but what took place was between Arlo and Trudell.

Q. You heard what was being said?

A. Yes.

Q. So you said that you believe Mr. Looking Cloud was

there, is that where we left off?

A. Yes.

Q. How about John Graham?

A. Yes, he was there.

Q. And Anna Mae was there?

A. Yes, she was in the back bedroom.

Q. Was Mr. Looking Cloud in the back bedroom with her?

A. No.

Q. He wasn't?

A. No.

Q. Where was he?

A. I don't know, I don't even know when Arlo came. I don't

remember that. I don't even know that I saw him there. I

know that he was there, I don't really know how I know he was

there, but I don't remember seeing him. I know I didn't talk

to him. I don't know if I saw him when they were leaving, I

don't really remember.

Q. So you remember seeing him some point in time, and you

just don't remember when it was?

A. No.

Q. No, you don't remember?

A. No.

Q. In fact, Mr. Looking Cloud has previously told you that

he wasn't even in your house, hasn't he?

A. I think so.

Q. Well, did he?

A. Yes.

Q. Wasn't in your house at all?

A. I don't know, I didn't see him. I can't say whether he

was or he wasn't, I did not see him.

Q. But he told you he wasn't in your house, didn't he?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were you during the meeting?

A. Part of the time I was in the kitchen, part of the time

I went back to the back where Anna Mae was, and another little

by way in to my bedroom.

Q. When you went back to where Anna Mae was, did you visit

with her?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say to you?

MR. RENSCH: Objection, hearsay, Your Honor.

THE COURT: How about did he say anything to you?


MR. McMAHON: I like that.


Q. Did she say anything to you?

A. Yes. I don't remember the exact conversation, but she

was nervous about. I mean she was nervous about the fact that

there were a bunch of people there, and from the bedroom she

was in, it was directly in front of the parking lot, and so

anybody that came in to the house you could see who was coming

and going.

Q. What was she doing when you went into the back bedroom?

A. She was sitting on the bed and she was distraught, I

guess is the word. She was not in a good place.

Q. Was she huddled up?

A. I think she had her head down. I don't remember, but I

know that she was, I think she had her head down, possibly on

her knees, I don't remember exactly.

Q. Was she frightened?

A. Yes.

MR. McMAHON: May I approach the witness, Your


THE COURT: You may.

MR. RENSCH: What page are you at, counsel?

MR. McMAHON: 47.


Q. Have you had a chance to review a portion of your

previous grand jury testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to what she said to you?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say to you?

MR. RENSCH: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained in part. Once again, this

isn't offered for the truth of the matter stated, but rather

is to show Anna Mae Aquash's state of mind and what she may

have felt.


Q. Go ahead, you can say what she said to you.

A. She said that if this occurred, if they took her back to

South Dakota, that I would never see her again. That no one

would ever see her again.

Q. What happened when the meeting was over?

A. Everybody just left, they just got up and all left.

Q. Did you -- did anybody say anything about where they

were going?

A. Somebody must have, because I understood they were going

back to South Dakota.

Q. Did you confront anyone?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Who?

A. My aunt.

Q. What did you say to her?

A. I asked her why they were doing that. I said why are

you doing this, what is the purpose of this, or why are you

doing this, you know. I don't understand this, you know, you

brought her here, you wanted her to be safe, and she doesn't

want to go, she doesn't want to go with you, so I don't

understand why you are doing this, why?

Q. Did you get an explanation?

A. She just sort of yelled some obscenities and told me

that I was stupid, and I didn't know what was going on, and

kind of pushed me aside and told me to just shut up.

Q. So did they take Anna Mae?

A. Yeah, I, I don't remember exactly who, but somebody went

to the bathroom and told her to come on, she was going with them.

Q. Was Anna Mae crying?

A. Yeah, she was crying.

Q. Was she scared?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she go voluntarily?

A. She didn't want to go with them, but she went

voluntarily, and I think it was because of me.

Q. Was she tied up?

A. No, she wasn't.

Q. Was she ever tied up?

A. I never saw her tied.

Q. Did you see them put her in the car?

A. I saw them when they were leaving. At some point I went

back to my bedroom, went back in to my bedroom and I spoke

with Angie Begay briefly, and I asked Angie to help me, you

know, to try to stop what was going on.

Q. Did you see who got in the car?

A. I am not exactly certain, but I know there were four

people in the car, because they put her in the hatch back, you

know, in the back of the little car.

Q. Whose car was it?

A. Aunt Theda's.

Q. What color was it?

A. It was red.

Q. You know what kind it was?

A. I think it was a Pinto.

Q. So you know she was put in to that car?

A. Um-hum.

Q. And now she was put in the back end?

A. Um-hum. She was small and she could fit in there

without much discomfort. You know, she was sitting up.

Q. Was Theda in the car?

A. Yes.

Q. Was John Graham in the car?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Arlo Looking Cloud in the car?

A. I think so.

Q. Did he later tell you that he was in the car?

A. I am not sure.

Q. What did you do then?

A. I tried to call the police.

Q. Did you call the police?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you talk to somebody?

A. I, at that time there wasn't a 911 direct service, you

had to call a number, you know, like the seven digit number,

and then they put you through to a dispatcher, something like

that. And so I was only at the first part of the call and

Angle Begay came in and hung the phone up and said, you know,

don't do this. You know, it is just going to cause more

problems, don't do this, don't get involved in this.

Q. So you say Angie Begay?

A. Yes.

Q. What is her name now?

A. Angie Janis.

Q. And she stopped you from making that call?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you try to call back?

A. No.

Q. Did you try to call back after Angie left?

A. I don't know if Angie left, I don't remember.

Q. Well, she didn't live with you for the rest of your

life, did she?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever call the police and report this?

A. No.

Q. When was the next time you saw Mr. Looking Cloud?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Do you remember when the next time it was that you saw

John Graham?

A. I don't know the, I don't know the exact date, but it

was soon after that time. I don't know the exact time, but it

was soon, like within a week or something like that I would say.

Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Graham what had happened?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. Because I had heard, or I had talked with somebody in

South Dakota and they said that Anna Mae was in Oglala, so I

didn't think there was any concern.

Q. Well, at some point in time did you learn that she had

been killed?

A. Not until the day that they found her.

Q. So eventually you did?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Did you ask Mr. Graham what happened then?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. Because I never thought that he had anything to do with it.

Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Looking Cloud what happened?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. For the same reason.

Q. So even though they left in the car with her, you didn't

think they had anything to do with it?

A. No. I never had anything to fear from them, they are

not anybody that I would fear, and there was nothing frightful

for me. It wasn't me that was frightened or fearful, it was

Anna Mae.

Q. That whole event, that whole meeting at your house

wasn't frightening to you at all?

A. No.

Q. Didn't bother you at all?

A. No.

Q. Why did you try to call the police then?

A. Because she didn't want to go.

Q. It must have bothered you somewhat then?

A. Yes.

Q. But then you just dropped it?

A. Yes.

Q. When was it that you found out she was dead?

A. We were here in Rapid City at Mother Butler's I think for

the, one of the anniversaries of Wounded Knee.

Q. So would it have been some time in February of '76?

A. Probably the end of February. Possibly the first of

March, I don't remember the exact date, but that is the

anniversary of Wounded Knee, and that is what was going on here.

Q. Did you ever ask your Aunt Theda what had happened after

they left with her, with Anna Mae?

A. No, and if I had, she wouldn't have answered me anyway.

She never told me anything.

Q. Well, now after, some time after the body was discovered

you were approached by law enforcement on several different

occasions, weren't you?

A. A number of years later, yes.

Q. Like two years later?

A. I don't, I think it was much longer than two years. I

don't know the exact amount of time, but it was quite a while.

Q. And you refused to talk to them, didn't you?

A. Probably.

Q. Well, you did, didn't you?

A. Probably, yeah, I guess. You know. I didn't have too

much to talk about with law enforcement at that time.

Q. Well, is that because you had already forgotten about

this meeting that took place at your house?

A. No.

Q. You had remembered it still by then, hadn't you?

A. It had nothing to do with that meeting.

Q. It didn't?

A. No. It wasn't my practice to talk at all to law


Q. So when Anna Mae was being taken out of your house you

attempted to call the police, but after you found out she was

dead you refused to talk with law enforcement?

A. Yes.

Q. When was the first time that you visited with

Mr. Looking Cloud about what had happened that evening after

they left your house?

A. I don't think I ever did. Arlo never discussed anything

with me, he would not have involved me in any of it.

Q. We talked a minute ago about the fact that you were in

on a conversation.

A. Well, I didn't know anything until that time. Until this

time that he talked to Trudell I never knew anything about

what had happened.

Q. Okay. My question was when was the first time?

A. That was the first time.

Q. So it would have been when you and Mr. Looking Cloud met

with John Trudell?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was John Trudell?

A. John Trudell was at one time the national spokesman for

the American Indian Movement. He was also a close, a very

close friend. And at this particular time he was, he was a

poet, and he was traveling with a group called Midnight Oil,

and he was the opening performance for them. And he was in

Denver. He called and told me that he was going to be there

and that he would leave tickets for me at the box office. And

so Arlo just happened to come that evening and we picked up

the tickets and went to the Midnight Oil concert. And then

the tickets had back stage passes and we went to, we went back-

stage and met the people that were part of the Midnight Oil

group, and I think Quilt Man and who ever else was traveling

with Trudell.

Q. Who was in on this conversation with John Trudell?

A. We went, after the concert we went to a hotel downtown

that they were all staying at, the bands were staying at, and

we were there with them for a little while. I don't know how

long, but for some length of time everybody just visited

upstairs in the hotel room. And then at some point in time

Arlo and Trudell and I went down to my car, it was parked on

the street beside the hotel.

Q. So just the three of you then had a conversation?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Mr. Looking Cloud talk about what happened after

they left your house that night with Anna Mae?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he tell you and Mr. Trudell where they went to?

A. I think he said they went to Rapid City.

Q. Did he tell you where they went in Rapid City?

A. I am not sure that he told me, but at what point in time

I learned that it was Thelma Rios' house, but I know they went

to Thelma Rios' house. I don't know that he told us that. I

don't remember exactly what was, who said what or who told

what, but I knew they went to Thelma Rios' home.

Q. He told you they went to a home in Rapid City?

A. mn-hum.

Q. Did he tell you where they went after that?

A. He said they went to Rosebud.

Q. And did he tell you what he did while they were in Rapid

City at that home?

A. No.

Q. Did he ever tell you that he was helping to guard Anna Mae?

A. I think he was there, but I don't know that guard was

the word that was used.

Q. Well, may I approach. Your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.


Q. Have you had a chance to review your grand jury


A. Yes.

Q. Does that help refresh you, what he said?

A. There was a question on there if Arlo was guarding Anna

Mae Aquash at that house, and my reply is that I think he was

along with John Boy, but I don't know that. I wasn't there.

Q. Where did he tell you they went from Rapid City?

A. He just said to Rosebud.

Q. Did he tell you that they had stopped on the Pine Ridge

Reservation at Allen?

A. He may have, but I don't remember.

Q. He didn't say what particular place they went to on Rosebud?

A. He didn't know.

Q. Did they stop somewhere?

A. What do you mean did they stop somewhere, when they got

to Rosebud?

Q. Yes.

A. He said they went to a house in Rosebud.

Q. They went to a house, but he didn't know whose house?

A. No.

Q. And what did he tell you took place while they were at that house?

A. He said he didn't go in, he stayed outside. He sat

outside with Anna Mae in the car.

Q. And who went in the house?

A. I guess John Boy and Aunt Theda.

Q. What did he tell you about a conversation he had with

Anna Mae in the car while they were alone together in that car?

A. He said that she told him that they were deciding her

fate in there, and that he should just let her go. He should

let her go.

Q. Didn't she beg him to let her go?

A. I think she asked him, you know, very sincerely. I

guess you could say begging.

Q. And he wouldn't let her go?

A. He said that he couldn't do that. That nothing -- she

thought that they were deciding what was going to happen to

her in there, and she told him that they were going to be,

what ever they decided in there he was probably going to have

to carry it through. And he said that he told her that that

wasn't, that wasn't going to happen, there wasn't any basis

for that, you know, he didn't believe that.

Q. He wouldn't let her go, would he?

A. No, he said he couldn't do that.

Q. Did he tell you where they went then?

A. He said they drove into the Bad Lands.

Q. To the Bad Lands?

A. Um-hum. I don't know the place.

Q. What happened then?

A. He said that they got out of the car, and that Theda

stayed in the car, and that he and John Boy walked up a hill.

Q. What was Anna Mae saying while they walked up that hill?

A. He said that she said that they didn't have, they don't

have to do this, they could just leave her there and let her go.

Q. Was she begging them not to kill her?

A. I don't know.

Q. You on one occasion relayed what Arlo told you to Kamook

Nichols, didn't you?

A. We discussed a lot of things.

Q. And that is part of what you discussed, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And you have had an opportunity to review, just review

now a part of a tape recording transcript that was made during

that conversation, haven't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that help refresh your recollection as to what

Mr. Looking Cloud told you Anna Mae was saying as they walked

up that hill?

A. Yes.

Q. What was she saying?

A. That she asked them to let her go, that they didn't have

to do that to her.

Q. Was she crying?

A. She was crying I think.

Q. And she telling them that she had two young daughters?

A. I don't know that.

Q. She begged them to let her go?

A. I don't know that.

Q. You don't remember that?

A. That doesn't say that in there, doesn't say anything

about two young daughters.

Q. Did she tell them she hadn't done anything wrong to anybody?

A. Yes.

Q. She told them they didn't have to do this to her?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Looking Cloud also told that to Mr. Trudell, didn't he?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Isn't that what he told you?

A. Yes.

Q. Now you said before you were there when Mr. Looking

Cloud visited with Kamook Nichols about this, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he tell her a lot less of the story than he told to

you and Mr. Trudell?

A. He didn't tell her very much. I don't even remember

really what we talked about, but he had just gotten out of

jail, he was in a very fit place, he was detoxing, he didn't

have too much to say.

MR. McMAHON: That's all I have. Your Honor.

THE COURT: You may cross examine.


Q. Would you ever lie under oath?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever lied under oath in this case?

A. No.

Q. Are you afraid that people think you have something to

do with the death of Ms. Pictou-Aquash?

A. Afraid like how?

Q. Are you afraid you are going to be charged in helping

with her murder?

A. I felt that at times.

Q. Did you help with her murder?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Your Aunt Theda Clark back in 1975 was how old? Was she

in her fifties?

A. She is 80, going to be 81 years old, so I don't know.

Q. You say that when you tried to stop this that she just

basically brushed you aside and called you stupid, is that right?

A. And a few more.

Q. What did she say to you?

A. She cursed and cussed, and which was her normal language

at times when she was angry, and even when she wasn't it was

her normal language.

Q. She was pushy, wasn't she?

A. Yes.

Q. She would tell people to do things, wouldn't she?

A. I don't know what the difference between telling and

asking is, but she asked in a forceful manner, and not very

many people did not do what she asked.

Q. Do you love your Aunt Theda?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Been close to her for many, many years?

A. She was like my second mother.

Q. You would never want to see anything bad happen to her,

would you?

A. No.

Q. You agree that blood is thicker than water?

A. Yes.

Q. Meaning you are closer to your relatives than you are

your friends, right?

A. Well, in our way almost everybody is our relative, all

of the Lakota people are my relatives.

Q. Do you specifically remember what Arlo told you happened

from the point Ms. Pictou-Aquash was taken out of that car and

walked to the edge of the hill?

A. Do I remember exactly?

Q. Yes?

A. Just that I think she tried to dissuade them about

taking her up the hill.

Q. Did she try to dissuade Arlo, or did she try to dissuade

John Boy, do you know?

A. I don't know. I think probably both, but I wouldn't know.

Q. When you listened to Arlo, it was your impression that

when she was shot it was a total surprise to him, isn't that true?

A. Yes.

Q. When you listened to what Arlo described to John

Trudell, it was your impression that he didn't want her to

die, isn't that true?

A. I don't believe he ever thought it would happen.

Q. Well, was it your impression in listening to his words

that he wanted her to die?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever hear him say that he wanted her to die?

A. Of course not.

Q. Did you ever hear him say that he was in any way in

control of the situation?

A. He was never in control.

Q. It is at your house when this meeting occurred, I want

to clear something up. Was Arlo present at this meeting?

A. I never saw him. There was so much going on and there

was so much confusion, I never, ever saw Arlo. I never talked

to Arlo. I wish that I had had the opportunity to talk to or

see Arlo, I never saw him.

Q. Can you tell this jury with certainty that he was not in

that meeting room?

A. He was not in that meeting room. I don't know at what

point he came in, I never saw him. I have heard from others

that he came in and went down into the basement. I have heard

some others that he never came all the way in the house. I

don't know, I never saw him. I know, I don't even know how I

know that he left with them. Things were really confusing,

and, you know, it was just really hard to be absolutely

certain of anything.

Q. Is it possible that when Arlo was explaining what

Ms. Pictou-Aquash was saying that he was saying that she was

asking the people in the car to let her go?

A. I don' t know.

Q. Do you, can you specifically recall him talking about

just exactly where Ms. Pictou-Aquash was when she was asking

to be let go?

A. It was either in the car or it was at the hill. I can't

absolutely say for certain.

Q. It's very important we try to pin this down, because --

well, it's obvious why it's important. Do you know whether

what he described to you was Ms. Pictou-Aquash saying these

things in the car, or walking up toward the hill?

A. I don't know. I am not absolutely certain.

Q. So you have known Arlo for a long time, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. After this weekend in December of 1975, he wasn't doing

much with the American Indian Movement after that time, was he?

A. I didn't see Arlo for some length of time. I can't tell

you what the length of time was, but I just, that was possibly

one of the reasons why we never talked about anything that had

happened, because I didn't see him.

Q. In these years that have passed since that December

night, has Arlo, what has he become?'

A. Well, he drinks a lot. He has, always had a home with

this family, but he chose to just be a vagabond and go about

wherever, and I don't know, just everybody knew him, everybody

knows him in Denver. All the people and many others, the

Lakota people, they are, he is welcome in their homes,

everybody's children they all call him uncle. He just comes

and goes from all different peoples' homes.

Q. Did he live on the streets?

A. Like what do you mean live? He lived out, he was out on

the street a lot, but he didn't sleep on the street unless he

passed out there maybe, I don't know.

Q. Was he a street person?

A. It is kind of hard to delineate a street person. If he

had a home, if you have a home to go to, if you choose to be

out and about, then it is sort of a matter of choice, I guess,

I don't know.

Q. Did he have apartments or houses or anything like that

to go to that were his own?

A. At times he did.

Q. Through the years as you have spoken to Arlo, how has

his ability to communicate changed, if any?

A. How has his.

Q. Ability to communicate changed?

A. He doesn't trust a lot of people.

Q. How about just the way he talks, do you feel as you

listen to him that, well, he might have some problems with his mind?

A. I think that drinking debilitates anybody's mind.

Q. Are you telling this jury that Arlo told you that he

helped kill this poor lady?

A. Arlo never told me that he helped kill anybody.

Q. Well, you have told us that he said that he and John Boy

walked her out to the edge while she was begging, and I need

to know did he tell you that?

A. I can't tell you exactly when anything happened, but I

know, I don' t know.

Q. Isn't it true, Ma'am, that you testified before a grand

jury in 1995, you remember coming up and testifying before the

grand jury?

A. In Sioux Falls.

Q. Page 25. I want to ask you if were you asked this

question and if you gave this answer. Question, and it's your

testimony to this grand jury that you never talked to Arlo

Looking Cloud about what had happened to Anna Mae? Answer,

no, I didn't talk to Arlo. Arlo didn't talk to me about it.

Is that the question and answer that you gave under oath back

in 1995.

A. Yes. Arlo never did really talk with me about it. I

only was there when he talked, he told Trudell what happen,

Arlo never discussed anything with me.

Q. You were just telling Mr. McMahon that he was talking to

you out there in the car while Mr. Trudell was there?

A. He wasn't talking to me, I was sitting in the car and he

was talking. He told Trudell, I just sat there and listened.

I wasn't a part of the conversation.

Q. You understand, do you not, that you don't want anything

bad to happen to your Aunty Theda, do you?

A. No.

Q. Would you lie for her?

A. Would I lie for my aunt?

Q. Yes?

A. I wouldn't lie for her, I wouldn't speak at all.

Q. Would you lie for Arlo?

A. That's a difficult question.

Q. Would you lie under oath?

A. No.

Q. Arlo told you that he was coming over to your house to

meet a friend by the name of Joe Morgan, didn't he?

A. Yes.

Q. And that he was coming over to meet Joe Morgan to go

drinking with him?

A. Yes.

Q. And that when he showed up at your house, your Aunt

Theda asked him if he would drive to Rapid City, isn't that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And that he drove to Rapid City, isn't that right?

A. I can't say that he drove all the way.

Q. He drove part of the way?

A. I am sure that he drove part of the way.

Q. And they ended up at some vacant apartment that we later

learned to be Thelma Rios?

A. Yes.

Q. And that when Ms. Pictou-Aquash is in that apartment,

Arlo went to get gas for the car and ran in to a guy named

Tony Red Cloud?

A. I think he did tell me that, but I don't remember that.

When you are telling me then you are bringing back a memory

that I have kind of forgotten.

Q. And that when he got back, Theda and John Boy were mad

at him because he was gone for so long?

A. He did tell me that.

Q. When did he tell you that?

A. I don't know, I don't remember.

Q. And then he told you that they went down to Rosebud, and

he didn't know whose house it was, but it was by the hospital

down there, isn't that correct?

A. I don't think he, I don't remember even by the hospital,

all I know it was a house in Rosebud.

Q. And that he just stayed out in the car as Theda and John

Boy went in?

A. Yes.

Q. Then the car drove toward Kadoka?

A. Yes.

Q. And that when the car pulled over on the side of the

road, John Boy got Ms. Pictou-Aquash out of the car, isn't

that what he told you?

A. Yes.

Q. And that either Theda or John Boy told him that he

should follow John Boy, isn't that what he said to you?

A. Yes.

Q. And that when he started to follow, she began to pray

and John Boy shot her in the back of the head, and this was a

surprise to Arlo, isn't that what he told you, Ma'am?

A. I think that he said that she knelt down and then John

Boy shot her.

Q. But it was a surprise to him?

A. Yes.

Q. And that John Boy turned, and Arlo had never met him

before, did he tell you that?

A. I don't think Arlo did know John Boy.

Q. And that when John Boy turned he looked at Arlo, and

Arlo didn't know what to do, did he tell you that?

A. I don't remember that.

Q. And that he then asked for the gun from John Boy because

he wanted to empty it, and he fired the gun over the

embankment, didn't he tell you that, Ma'am?

A. I don't remember that.

Q. And he emptied that gun because he didn't want John Boy

to be able to shoot him, isn't that what he told you?

A. I don't, you know what, what you are telling me I have

some recollection of, but I don't remember when or what.

Q. And that they went back to the vehicle and it was quiet

in the vehicle as they drove back toward Denver?

A. Yes.

Q. And that they stopped at a bridge because they were

going to bury the gun, didn't he tell you that?

A. He didn't tell me, he told Trudell.

Q. He told Trudell that they stopped at the bridge?

A. They stopped and they buried the gun someplace. He

didn't say where, I don't remember where.

Q. So what you are telling us, the only time you ever

talked to him was when he was with Trudell, is that what you

are saying?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Once they got back to Denver he was through with the

American Indian Movement, he was done with it, isn't that what

he told you?

A. I don't know if he told me that or, you know, or it just

was that way.

Q. This whole thing ruined his life, didn't it, Ma'am?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. He never once said to you that he wanted that woman to

die, did he?

A. He wouldn't have had a part of it if he knew that was

going to happen.

MR. RENSCH: Nothing further, thank you.

THE COURT: Redirect.


Q. Where is your Aunt Theda now?

A. She is in a nursing home in Crawford, Nebraska.

Q. You said you wouldn't have wanted anything bad to happen

to her?

A. Of course not.

Q. And you don't want anything bad to happen to Mr. Looking

Cloud either, do you?

A. No.

Q. You want to protect him the best that you can?

A. Yes.

Q. You were asked some questions about whether there was

one conversation about Anna Mae begging to be let free or two,

you remember those questions from Mr. Rensch?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Now when you told Kamook Nichols what Mr. Looking Cloud

told you concerning what was going on when they got her in the

car in the Bad Lands, didn't you tell her that she was begging

them not to kill her at that time?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember. Did you just read this?

A. Yes, but then all of this is, there is pages and

endless, you know.

Q. But didn't this say right here that you were talking

about when they went out to the field she was begging them not

to kill her?

A. Yes.

Q. And that she was crying?

A. Yes.

Q. And that she --

A. That's what it says on there. So that's the testimony

obviously. I can't tell you exactly, because I don't remember everything.

Q. And she just kept asking them not to do it?

A. I would say yes.

Q. And that they didn't listen to her, and they just kept

marching her out there?

A. Well, I don't know how far the march was, but I assume so.

Q. That's what you said, isn't it?

A. That's what it says on the paper.

Q. Are you denying that this tape recording is accurate?

A. What do you mean by that?

Q. Are you claiming that you didn't say this?

A. We talked about a lot of different things.

Q. Are you claiming that you didn't say this?

A. No. You are confusing me.

Q. Just a minute. Page 64, Counsel. Did you have a chance

to look at your grand jury testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were asked a question, did you have a

conversation with Anna Mae while he was setting in the car

with her, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And your answer was that he said that Anna Mae told him

that I mean she begged him, and pleaded with him to let her

go, to let her out, to let her go, and he told her he couldn't do that?

A. Yes.

Q. So there were two conversations about being let go,

weren't there?

A. But see, I am not certain of that. That's what I keep

telling you, I am not certain about. I believe that this

happened, but I don't know which place it was. I don't know

if it was one place or the other. I don't know that there was

two conversations, I think there was one.

Q. You talked about two?

A. Well.

Q. You talked about one in the car and one at the field,

didn't you?

A. Yes, but I think that there was only one. I am not certain.

Q. Well, which place was it?

A. I don't know.

Q. Which one were you making up?

A. I don' t know.

MR. McMAHON: That's all.


Q. You know we went through some testimony back in 1995

where you denied under oath having any conversations at all

with Arlo Looking Cloud about this, do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you lying when you said that?

A. No.

Q. How can you tell us what Arlo said if you didn't have

any conversations with him?

A. I didn't have a conversation with Arlo, I only heard

what he said to John Trudell.

Q. Now, let's talk about page 67, the question you were

just asked and the full answer. Question, did he have a

conversation with Anna Mae while he was sitting in the car

with her? Answer, he said that Anna Mae told him, I mean she

begged him and pleaded with him to let her go, to let her out,

let her go, and he told her he couldn't do that. And she said

they are in there deciding my fate, and your, they are

probably going to make you pull the trigger. And he said, you

know, that's not true, that's not going to happened and you

are just being paranoid and stuff like that. And she told him

no, I am telling you the truth, and you should just let me out

and let me go. Is that your full answer that you gave to that question?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you get the impression that Arlo knew that she was

going to die?

A. Arlo didn't know she was going to die.

Q. Are you sure of that?

A. I am sure.

MR. McMAHON: Your Honor, I object.

THE COURT: Overruled -- what was the basis for the objection?

MR. McMAHON: Argumentative, calling for pure speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained, answer is stricken. Anything further.

MR. RENSCH: Nothing.

THE COURT: Anything further.

MR. McMAHON: Nothing, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well it is five to 5:00, so we are not

going to call another witness at this time. Remember what I

told you before, don't let anybody talk to you about the case.

If anybody does try to talk to you about the case, you let me

know about it. You can leave your notes back here, nobody is

going to look at them tonight. Don't try to do any separate

independent research, I don't want you to look at the

newspaper or the news. I don't want you do hear somebody

else's slant on this in the event there is anything in the

newspaper about it, because you are the ones that are going to

make the decision based upon the facts as you see them. Not

what somebody reports is their view of what is going on, if in

fact somebody does. So don't. Skip the newspaper, and the

news, and don't talk to each other about the case either until

we are completely done with the case and you are back in the

jury room deliberating. So we will be in recess then until

9:00 tomorrow morning. Thank you, and good night. Please

stand for the jury.

(Jury Leaves).

THE COURT: I wanted to inquire as to when the

government thinks they will finish their case.

MR. McMAHON: I think tomorrow. Your Honor. Mid


THE COURT: That was my guess. Obviously you know

more about your witnesses than I do. And if that comes to

pass, then when does the defense think they will finish their


MR. RENSCH: All my witnesses are subpoenaed for

Friday morning at 8:00, and I suspect you would be looking at

no more than four hours.

MR. McMAHON: Your Honor, I am not exactly sure

which witnesses he is talking about. If there's other ones

than are on the list that he gave us, but most of those

witnesses are around here, so there wouldn't be any reason we

couldn't start right away.

MR. RENSCH: I have subpoenaed them for Friday

morning at 8:00. If they are around here I am all for it.

THE COURT: See if they can be available so we can

have witnesses on tap when the government finishes so we can

go on, because it would work out well time wise in terms of

completing the evidence then. And you would be able to sounds

to me like maybe settle instructions and argue on Friday.

Because the instructions are pretty simple. So looking down

the road then just in terms of time planning for you, how much

time do you want for argument? I will listen to what you want

and then I will tell you what you get.

MR. McMAHON: I guess it is a little hard to guess

at this time because if haven't heard what is coming from the

other side, Your Honor, but I can't imagine I would want more

than an hour.

THE COURT: How about the defense.

MR. RENSCH: If they want an hour, I want an hour,

but I think we can argue it in thirty minutes.

THE COURT: Well, when you are done is up to you,

but I will give each side an hour. I have a no sand bag rule

which applies, of course, to the prosecution, and that is that

you can't argue any longer in rebuttal than you argued

initially. So for example, if there was 20 minutes that the

prosecution used in opening arguments, then you only get

twenty minutes in rebuttal. On the other hand, if the

prosecution used thirty minutes in opening arguments, they get

thirty for rebuttal. Obviously if they use more than that,

they only get what time is left out of an hour. So the

prosecution is familiar with that because they have tried

other cases in front of me, and Mr. Rensch, you see what I am

talking about.

MR. RENSCH: Is there any way I can prevail upon the

Court to change its mind about that rule? Let me just bring

something up. Under the rules of debate, for example, if you

have a statement and a response and then a rebuttal, the

rebuttal usually isn't allowed to be more than 33 percent of

the entire time allotted. If I get in to a situation where

they get to argue a half an hour, I get to argue for what will

probably be a half hour, and they get to argue for a half hour

again, I think it puts me at a disadvantage. I would request

they be limited to the extent they can argue for up to thirty

or forty minutes and have maybe twenty minutes on rebuttal, or

maybe a little less than that. But if we are in the situation

where the rebuttal can be as long as the initial statement, I

don't have any authority for it, but it strikes me as working

an inequity.

THE COURT: Well, but the thing you hypothecated is

exactly what they are held to. For example if they argue

forty, they only get twenty in rebuttal. If they argue twenty

they get twenty. I don't quite understand.

MR. RENSCH: I am worried about them arguing thirty

and getting thirty.

THE COURT: If that's what they argue, that's what

they get. You won't find any authority to the contrary.

Matter of fact, a lot of Judges don't limit the rebuttal. We

are in recess.

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