THE COURT: Call your next witness.

MR. McMAHON: Richard Two Elk.

RICHARD TWO ELK,

called as a witness, being first duly sworn, testified and said as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. State your name, please?

A. My name is Richard Two Elk.

Q. Where do you live?

A. I live in Denver, Colorado.

Q. How long have you lived there?

A. I have lived there off and on since about 1959.

Q. How old are you?

A. I am 49 years old.

Q. Where were you born?

A. I was born in Rapid City.

Q. Where did you grow up?

A. All over the country.

Q. Did you spend any time on any of the reservations in South Dakota?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. During what years would that have been?

A. From my birth to the present I have spent a lot of time

on Pine Ridge.

Q. Did you graduate from high school?

A. No.

Q. Did you spend any time in the military?

A. Yes.

Q. When were you in the military?

A. I was in the military from 1983 to 1987.

Q. What did you do prior to being in the military?

A. Prior to being in the military I was a Native American educator and journalist.

Q. What is your present occupation?

A. My present occupation is educational consultant.

Q. What do you do as an educational consultant?

A. I do presentations in public schools, I conduct medical training and orienteering.

Q. Were you a member of AIM?

A. I was a member of AIM.

Q. During approximately what years were you a member of the AIM organization?

A. From approximately 1970 to about 1975, '76.

Q. Where were you living during those years?

A. I lived in Denver and in Iowa.

Q. Do you know Mr. Arlo Looking Cloud?

A. Yes.

Q. You see him here in the courtroom?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you identify him, please?

A. He is sitting right over there in that chair.

MR. McMAHON: May the record reflect he identified the defendant?

THE COURT: It may.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. How do you know Mr. Looking Cloud?

A. We grew up together.

Q. What do you mean you grew up together, can you explain that?

A. When we were young people and we were growing up we

spent a lot of time hanging around and just raising cain together.

Q. Did you have any kind of special relationship with each other?

A. I think special in that Arlo's father and my mother had a friendship, and a result we ended up being closer than most.

I considered my special relationship with Arlo because I, unlike other people, I didn't have any fear of him.

Q. You are not a blood relative of his, though, are you?

A. No, I am not.

Q. During what years as far as your age were you and Arlo running around together?

A. Probably from the early to mid teens.

Q. Then how long did you continue to keep each other's company?

A. To the present.

Q. So you have known him for a long time?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you spend a lot of time together?

A. Not an excessive amount of time. Enough to where we maintained our relationship over the years.

Q. Have you spent time with him in Denver?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Mr. Looking Cloud involved in the AIM movement?

A. Yes.

Q. Would it have been at the same time you were?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you go to AIM activities together?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Could you describe what type of involvement the two of you had?

A. Well, if there was an activity going on that was

sponsored by the American Indian Movement such as a

demonstration or a rally, or other sort of event, we would

often go there and provide support. We would be present. So

mostly just support for different activities that AIM did.

Q. Were you living in Denver during your AIM involvement years?

A. I lived in Denver and in Iowa.

Q. How about Mr. Looking Cloud, where was he living then?

A. Denver and South Dakota and --

Q. Were the two of you active in any particular chapter of AIM?

A. The Denver chapter.

Q. Do you know a person by the name of John Graham?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know him?

A. He was a friend of both Arlo and I.

Q. When was that?

A. In 1974 and "75 and '76.

Q. So for three years?

A. Around about that, it may have been '75 and '76.

Q. Was he a friend of yours while you were in Denver?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he also involved in AIM activities?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the three of you ever do anything together?

A. Well, we partied together, we made chokers together and

would go out and sell those.

Q. What do you mean chokers?

A. They hair pipe chokers and Indian crafts, if you will.

So we would go and would sell those, and just stuff like that.

Q. Did the three of you, yourself, Mr. Looking Cloud and

Mr. John Graham, do these things together?

A. Often.

Q. Often?

A. Not all the time, but often.

Q. You said that would have been in '74, '75 and '76?

A. I would have to say '75 and '76 to be certain.

Q. '75 and '76. Did you, the three of you hang around

together prior to December of 1975?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you continue to hang around together after December of 1975?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever had an occasion to talk with Mr. Looking

Cloud about Anna Mae Aquash's murder?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. When was the first time you visited with him about that?

A. The first time that I visited with Arlo about the murder

of Anna Mae Aquash is when he called me from the federal

holding in 1994.

Q. You mean he was in jail?

A. Yes.

Q. And he called you from jail?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he say to you?

A. He explained to me that he was being held in reference

to the Anna Mae investigation. He wanted to know if I could

help him, because I had a military background and I had a good

sense of the institutional processes. So he asked me for

advice and what I thought should be done.

Q. What did you tell him?

A. I asked him if he had, was responsible for killing Anna

Mae? And he said no. And so then I told him that if he

needed to, then he should tell them the truth about as much as

he could about his involvement, and then maybe he would get

out of jail.

Q. Did he get out of jail?

A. He did.

Q. Did the two of you have an occasion to visit about this again?

A. Yes.

Q. When would that have been?

A. Well, we visited several times since he got out of jail

to the present, since he was incarcerated last.

Q. When would have the first have been after he got out of jail?

A. I would say we didn't seriously start to explore the

depths of it until mid to late 1990's, '96 and '97.

Q. '96 and '97, somewhere in there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was the last time you visited with Mr. Looking

Cloud, about when this would have been?

A. About two weeks prior to his arrest.

Q. Let's start with your -- well, first of all, how many

visits do you think you have had with him about this matter?

A. I would say at least a half a dozen, if not more.

Q. Let's start with the early visits. Tell me, if you

would, what he told you about what happened to Anna Mae?

MR. RENSCH: Objection, foundation.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. When did you have this first visit then?

A. Telephonic, or in person?

Q. After that telephone visit?

A. After he was released, when he was available, probably a

year '95 I would say.

Q. Who was present during this visit?

A. Just Arlo and I.

Q. Where did that visit take place?

A. At his aunt's house.

Q. Where is that?

A. In Denver.

Q. Just the two of you were present?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ask him about what had happened to Anna Mae Aquash?

A. Yes. I asked him about more of the particulars and the

details of what I had been told initially.

Q. Did the two of you then have a conversation about it?

A. Yes.

Q. Now at that time did you talk at all about him being at

Yellow Wood's?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What did he tell you about that?

A. He told me was, that they were at Troy Lynn's when they

received a call that said that they had to go to South Dakota.

Q. You say they received a call, did he get any more

specific than that?

A. No.

Q. Did he say why they had to go to South Dakota?

A. They had to go to South Dakota and take Anna Mae up

there to respond to charges that she was an informer.

Q. Did he tell you who was going to take her up there?

A. He told me that he and John Boy and Theda were going to

take her up there.

Q. Did he tell you who made that telephone call?

A. No.

Q. Did he tell you where they went in South Dakota?

A. Just to Rapid City.

Q. Did he tell you what happened in Rapid City?

A. What he told me was that in Rapid City they went to the

interrogation, they were present for the interrogation, and

they wanted to try to help Anna Mae respond to the charges

effectively.

Q. So he told you that he actually was trying to help Anna

Mae respond to the charges?

A. That was what he had told me, that was my understanding of it.

Q. Was Mr. Graham helping also?

MR. RENSCH: Objection, leading, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. Was anyone else helping?

A. I am sorry?

Q. Was anyone else helping Anna Mae respond to the charges?

A. No.

Q. Did he tell you where they were at in Rapid City?

A. No.

Q. Did he mention where they went when they left Rapid City?

A. What he told me was after they left Rapid City they went

out looking for somewhere to go to, and they went to Rosebud

and Pine Ridge, and that was the best that I knew, driving around.

Q. Did he tell you who made that trip to Rosebud and Pine Ridge?

A. He told me that there was he and John Boy.

Q. Was Theda Clark with them?

A. Not that he said.

Q. Did he tell you what they did on Rosebud or Pine Ridge?

A. What he told me was that they went to Pine Ridge and

they had, they were trying to find somewhere to go, and they

stopped to, just to stop, and that's when the rest of the

events started to happen.

Q. Did he tell you exactly where they had stopped?

A. No.

Q. What did he tell you happened when they stopped?

A. That they got out of the vehicle and --

Q. Let me stop you there a minute. You said they got out

of the vehicle, who are you talking about?

A. John Boy and Arlo and Anna Mae.

Q. Go ahead then?

A. That they had gotten out of the vehicle and they were

going to go off the side of the road, and Arlo gave the gun to

John Boy and nodded to him, and John Boy went off with Anna Mae.

Q. You said that Arlo gave the gun to John Boy?

A. That's what he told me.

Q. When they were out at the site where Anna Mae was killed?

A. Yes.

Q. And then he told you what happened after that?

A. What he told me was that he gave the gun to John Boy,

and John Boy went off with Anna Mae, and that she had started

to pray or to begin the process for prayer when John Boy just

put the gun to her head and pulled the trigger.

Q. You said you had a series of other conversations with

Mr. Looking Cloud about this event, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you have those conversations?

A. Different places. His aunt's house, my house, wherever

we ran in to each other.

Q. During those other conversations did his, did he relate

the story to you again?

A. I would have him review some of the particulars to

measure them against what I had been told previously so that I

could get a better sense of what I was being told, and so we

did, we did visit the same story on several occasions.

Q. Did he ever change any portion of his story?

A. It would change often.

Q. You think of any examples as to how it changed?

MR. RENSCH: Objection, foundation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. The changes in the story would have to do with

particulars of, say for example, trying to think of a

particular one. Whether they went to Rosebud or not, as an

example.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. Did Mr. Looking Cloud ever claim to you that he didn't

know this was going to happen?

A. He also, he had told me that, yes.

Q. Was that before or after he told you that he was the one

that actually handed the gun to John Boy?

A. It was, well, both before and after. And on one

occasion he would tell me that he didn't know what was going

to happen until it happened, on another occasion he would tell

me otherwise.

Q. Did you ever have an occasion to help Mr. Looking Cloud

make contact with Anna Maes daughters?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When was that?

A. I believe it was within the past couple of years. I

know it was since -- I got to say within the past couple of

years the best I could say.

Q. What was your involvement in that?

A. My interest was that these two girls who were children

at the time had their mother taken from them without any

knowledge or understanding, and I felt that that was so wrong,

that I felt that anybody who had any knowledge about what

happened to their mother was obligated to inform them of that,

and so I coordinated the conversation between Arlo and the

girls.

Q. Did you listen in on the conversation?

A. No, I did not.

Q. At any time during your conversations with Mr. Looking

Cloud did he ever indicate to you when they received

instructions as to killing Anna Mae?

A. No.

MR. McMAHON: Thank you, that's all I have.

THE COURT: Cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RENSCH:

Q. How old are you, sir?

A. I am sorry?

Q. How old are you?

A. I am 49 years old.

Q. What is your job?

A. I am an educational consultant.

Q. What's that?

A. I teach classes in public schools.

Q. Have you taught any in the last month?

A. Not in the last month.

Q. When is the last class you taught in public school?

A. About a month and a half ago.

Q. Where was that?

A. In Denver.

Q. What school?

A. I can't divulge.

Q. You can't divulge the school you taught a class at?

A. No, sir, I cannot, not unless it's particularly in

reference to the case here.

Q. Alright. You say that you lived between Denver and Iowa

from 1972 to 1976, is that correct?

A. Between 1972 to 1976 I lived in Denver and Iowa and

South Dakota, yes.

Q. When did you live in Iowa?

A. I lived in Iowa different periods. 1970, 1971, 1973, and 1974.

Q. When did you live in South Dakota?

A. Oh, 1972, 1974, and 1975.

Q. What year were you born, sir?

A. 1954.

Q. You have told this jury that you basically grew up with

Arlo, is that right?

A. Basically.

Q. What does that mean to you, growing up with somebody?

A. You know them when you are growing up.

Q. When you say you grow up with someone, that means you

are with them, what else does it mean to you?

A. It means to me that we were growing up, we hung out

together, did things together.

Q. You lived in the same place?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever live in the same place as Arlo?

A. On a few different occasions.

Q. Where at?

A. At Troy Lynn's.

Q. You lived at Troy Lynn's?

A. Yes, I lived at Troy Lynn's.

Q. How long did you live there?

A. Boy, I couldn't say for sure how long.

Q. What years did you live there?

A. 1973, 1971, 1972, different periods.

Q. You have told people and made statements about Arlo that

he is your brother, haven't you, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. You consider him a brother?

A. Yes.

Q. Here in the courtroom today?

A. Yes.

Q. There would be no reason at all for you to make anything

up about him, right?

A. Nope.

Q. Because he is your brother and you wouldn't want to do

anything to hurt your brother, right?

A. No, I wouldn't want to do anything to hurt my brother.

Q. How many times did you speak with him about

Ms. Pictou-Aquash?

A. I would say at least a half a dozen, maybe more.

Q. Do you distinctly remember every conversation you had with him?

A. Not enough to be able to separate them and itemize them.

Q. You have also said that he has consistently told you

what happened through the years, haven't you, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. What does the word consistently mean to you?

A. I could quote Webster's definition, but I believe it

should mean the same thing to both of us, it happens often.

Q. Go ahead and quote whatever you would like, tell us what

consistently means?

A. It happens often, it stays the --

Q. It agrees with the same?

A. It happens often the same.

Q. In your quote of Webster's dictionary it means stays the

same, doesn't it?

A. I said I could quote the Webster's dictionary.

Q. Well, quote it then?

A. I don't. Consistent, you had asked me for a definition

of the word consistency.

Q. I asked you for the word consistency. You have said to

people that Arlo Looking Cloud consistently told you the same

thing over the years, have you not, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. If you say that someone consistently tells you the same

thing over the years, that means their story isn't changing,

doesn't it?

A. No.

Q. It doesn't. Tell us how someone can consistently say to

you the same thing over the years and change their story?

A. Well, we have a conversation about the same subject that

happens more than once, we consistently have the same types of

questions, same types of inquiries, we focus on the same

object, but the answers are often different.

Q. How can someone consistently say the same thing to you

while saying something different?

A. Because all the different answers are consistently the same.

Q. All the different answers are consistently the same.

That is what you are telling this jury?

A. Yes.

Q. You don't have a horse in this race, do you?

A. I can't even comment to that.

Q. You don't care how it turns out?

A. It went over my head.

Q. You don't care how this case turns out, do you?

A. I am not sure, is that a question, or an assertion?

Q. I am asking you, do you care how this case turns out?

A. Okay, now that's a question.

Q. Thank you?

A. I care, yes.

Q. You don't like the American Indian Movement, do you, sir?

A. I couldn't say that.

Q. You despise the leadership of the American Indian

Movement, don't you, sir?

A. I couldn't say that either.

Q. Well, you have told other people that you don't like the

leaders, have you not?

A. Yes.

Q. Who, do you have a blood brother, someone who is a blood

brother to you?

A. I have several blood brothers.

Q. Who are your blood brothers, who are brothers that are

brothers in the sense you come from the same mother and father?

A. I don't know that.

Q. Who are your brothers?

A. Who are my brothers? I have to tell you that I could

sit here and name my brothers, but I am trying to understand

what the value it has to this case.

Q. Well, you your understanding of the value it has to this

case, sir, is not an answer to the question. Do you have any

brothers that have the same last name as you?

A. Yes.

Q. Who are they?

A. Aaron, Don, Roy, Bruce,

Q. Two Elk, is that right?

A. No.

Q. Do you have a brother who has the same last name as you':

A. Aaron Two Elk.

Q. Aaron Two Elk. You are angry with the American Indian

Movement because he was shut out of the American Indian

Movement for a period of time, would you agree, sir?

A. No.

Q. You didn't try to intercede on his behalf and try to

make amends between Aaron and the American Indian Movement?

A. No.

Q. The truth of the matter is, sir, you would do anything

so that the American Indian Movement looks bad because you

hate it, would you agree?

A. No.

Q. Well, are you a member of it presently?

A. No.

Q. When did you quit being a member?

A. I stopped being an active member in the American Indian

Movement, Incorporated in about 1975.

Q. About 1975? What did you stop for?

A. Because I didn't feel like being used any more.

Q. When you think back on the telephone call that Arlo made

where he talked to you, can you tell us what he told you

happened?

A. I am sorry, again?

Q. Think to the first time you spoke to Arlo about the Anna

Mae Pictou-Aquash matter, do you know when that was?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. I believe it had to be in the summer or the fall of 1994.

Q. How did he contact you?

A. He called me by telephone.

Q. What did he say to you?

A. He wanted to know what I thought he should do.

Q. Did you ask him if he had killed anyone?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he say to you?

A. He said no, he hadn't.

Q. And he never told you that he helped kill anyone at that

point, did he?

A. Well, he did tell me that.

Q. He did tell you. What did he say to you about that?

A. He said that he was involved in the case, and he wanted

to know what he should do if he was involved in the case and

they were holding him. And so I told him he needed to tell

them as much as he could about the truth of his involvement.

Q. I thought you said he helped with her killing?

A. You asked me did he ever tell me that, and I said yes.

Involvement in the case is to me helping with her killing.

You may have a different interpretation.

Q. I think we do. The first time he spoke to you, didn't

you ask him if he had -- well, let's just get to your grand

jury testimony. We will deal with it that way. You asked him

did you commit the murder, and he said to you, no, did not, do

you agree?

A. I agree.

Q. What else did he tell you in that first phone call after

you asked him that question?

A. As I said, he asked me what I thought he should do,

because he was being held in reference to this case, and so I

told him that he needed to just tell them the truth about his

involvement.

Q. Did he say anything else to you during that phone call?

A. A lot of things.

Q. Please tell us what else?

A. I couldn't even begin to.

Q. Why not?

A. There was a pretty extensive conversation.

Q. You can't remember?

A. Not all the particulars.

Q. What else do you remember?

A. What I remember is that he called me and he wanted to

know what to do.

Q. And that he told you that he didn't kill anyone?

A. He told me he didn't kill Anna Mae, and that he was

involved and he wanted to know what to do.

Q. After that telephone call he is seeking basically legal

advice from you, is that what you are telling us?

A. No, why would he seek legal advice from me, I am not a lawyer.

Q. I think you are right there?

A. Doesn't make any sense.

MR. McMAHON: Your Honor, I ask that counsel be

instructed to quit badgering the witness and just ask questions.

THE COURT: This is cross examination. Ask your

next question.

BY MR. RENSCH:

Q. After that telephone call how many person-to-person

conversations did you have with Mr. Looking Cloud about Anna

Mae Aquash's death?

A. I would say at least a half a dozen, maybe more.

Q. Where was the first one?

A. At his aunt's house.

Q. Who was present?

A. Arlo and I.

Q. Was his aunt there?

A. She was inside.

Q. When the prosecutor asked you who was present, you just

said you and Arlo were there, didn't you?

A. We were outside, Arlo and I. She was not present,

that's what I said.

Q. Let me ask you this. When the prosecutor asked you

where this took place, you said at his aunt's house, didn't you?

A. Yes. I guess I could have gotten a little more

specific. We were outside and she was inside. Does that help?

Q. What did he say and what did you say?

A. You know, it was a pretty long conversation, pretty

involved, a lot of discussion. I don't, I couldn't say.

Q. You don't remember what he said, and you don't know what

you said during that first person-to-person conversation about

this death, is that right?

A. I repeat, I couldn't say.

Q. Tell me about the second conversation that you had that

was after this first one, where did that take place?

A. I couldn't even say.

Q. Who was present?

A. Arlo and I.

Q. Where did it happen?

A. I am sorry?

Q. Where did it happen?

A. Is that the same as where was it present, where did it

take place, is that the same question?

Q. It is?

A. I couldn't even say.

Q. Don't remember, what did you say and what did he say?

A. I didn't say I couldn't remember, I said I couldn't even say.

Q. What does that mean to you, sir?

A. What it means is we had many conversations over a long

period of time. I didn't log them or document them in writing

as such as an incident report. That many of these

conversations took place possibly when we were driving,

possibly when we were at my house, possibly when we ran in to

each other, and so because of the nature of it there are no

particulars on conversation one, conversation two,

conversation three, et cetera.

Q. I asked you if you knew where the second conversation

took place, you said that you couldn't say, and my question to

you is do you remember, yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did it take place then the second conversation?

A. In my car.

Q. It did. Now it's in your car. Why didn't you tell us

it was in your car when I first asked you the question?

A. Well, because you wanted to know where was the second

conversation, and I had to think about it, where was the

second conversation.

Q. So now you remember the second conversation was in your

car, is that right?

A. Well, I will tell you that the second conversation was

in my car, if that's what you want to hear.

Q. You know, sir, I don't think we are in this courtroom to

try to get just what we want to hear. My question to you is

simple. Did the second conversation take place in the car, yes or no?

A. The second conversation took place in my car.

Q. And you remember that?

A. I remember having a conversation in my car.

Q. When was it?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Where was the car?

A. Driving down the street in Denver.

Q. Where at?

A. Just driving down the street, you know.

Q. You are making it up as you go, aren't you, sir?

A. Well, okay, you know, let me explain this if I will.

Q. My question to you? You are making this up as you go,

aren't you, sir, yes or no?

A. No.

Q. Where was the third conversation?

A. The first conversation took place outside his aunt's house.

Q. I am asking where the third conversation was, sir?

A. The third conversation, I have to tell you I don't recall.

Q. In that conversation what did he say and what did you say?

A. In which conversation?

Q. The third one?

A. The third one?

Q. Yes?

A. We visited some of the same questions, and we disclosed

some of the same areas in terms of the events that took place.

Q. So what did he say and what did you say?

A. I would ask him questions about the location, the time,

the people that were there, and he would respond to the questions.

Q. I know you are telling us that you would ask him

questions and that he would respond. But I would ask you to

listen closely to what I am asking. What did he say and what

did you say?

A. He said if anybody wanted to know what happened to Anna

Mae and why, then they needed to talk to the leadership in the

American Indian Movement. And I said I agree. And that was what conversation, sir.

Q. The third one, where did that take place?

A. Driving in Denver in my car.

Q. I thought the second one was driving?

A. No, the third one was driving.

Q. Where was the second one?

A. Driving.

Q. They are all driving, aren't they?

A. What you don't understand, we had many conversations all over the place. As I said earlier, they took place many different times, they involved some of the same inquiries and some of the same responses. The responses would change, and sometimes they would be the same.

Q. Well, that sounds like you talked to him a lot more than six times if you don't mind my saying. A. As I said, six times, possibly a dozen.

Q. You said before this jury six times, possibly a dozen, is that what you are telling us, sir?

A. That's what I recall.

Q. You want to be a reporter, don't you, sir?

A. No, I don't want to be a reporter.

Q. You have been in contact with an individual by the name of Paul DeMain, have you not, sir?

A. I know Paul DeMain, yes.

Q. Who is he?

A. He is editor of a newspaper, News From Indian country, or Indian Country News.

Q. You would like to be a writer for him, wouldn't you?

A. No.

Q. He's paid you money, hasn't he?

A. He has paid me money, he has bought some of the products that I have, CD's, what have you.

Q. He has paid you to write stories for him, hasn't he?

A. No.

Q. Does he pay you in any way in connection with Arlo's case?

A. No.

Q. You ever received any moneys from anybody in connection with Arlo's case?

A. No.

Q. Here you are not testifying out of any ill will, you love this man, he is your brother?

A. Yes.

Q. You indicated that Mr. DeMain had purchased some products from you, you have a Web site on the internet, don't you, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. And you sell tapes of people who were involved in the American Indian Movement speaking about the movement, do you not?

A. No.

Q. Well, do you sell a tape by John Trudell?

A. No.

Q. You don't sell a tape where John Trudell's voice is on the tape at all? Please answer out loud, sir?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Who, which tapes, what do you sell?

A. CD ' s .

Q. Of what?

A. Of Native American speeches.

Q. Native American speeches, okay. Don't you sell a CD of

a speech that was a 1976 on the 4th of July by an individual

named John Trudell?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Who makes that speech?

A. I am sorry.

Q. Who makes that speech?

A. Who makes what speech?

Q. The speech you sell by John Trudell?

A. I don' t.

Q. You in the '70's went around with a tape recorder and interviewed people about events, didn't you, sir?

A. I carried, yes.

Q. And you did that so you could record their oral history, didn't you, sir?

A. No.

Q. What did you do it for?

A. So other people could hear what they had to say.

Q. You have also worked at a radio station for a period of time in Denver, or in Colorado, have you not, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the name of the radio station?

A. KGNU.

Q. What was your job there?

A. I didn't have a job there.

Q. I asked if you worked there, you said yes. What did do you there?

A. I was a volunteer producer.

Q. What is does a volunteer producer do?

A. Produces programs for radio broadcasts.

Q. You know how to edit tape recordings, don't you, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. You know how to tape record someone's voice if they are speaking, don't you, sir.

A. Yes.

Q. You have tape recording equipment, don't you, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. How much tape recording equipment do you have, sir?

A. Cassette recorder, microphone, head phones, computer, that's about it.

Q. You talked to Arlo many times about this case, didn't you, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. And you knew that it was, was the subject of a great deal of interest across these country, did you not?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever once tape record him talking about it?

A. Nope.

Q. Why not?

A. Because he didn't want me to.

Q. But you tape record the voices of other people to record what they say, don't you?

A. Yes.

Q. So that if someone wants to listen to what they say, they don't have to rely on your recollection, they can just hear their voices?

A. Exactly.

Q. What would be the importance of doing that?

A. The importance of doing that would be that I could in no way ever attempt to paraphrase or repeat what other people have to say, that they their knowledge and their intelligence is original, and I would do them a great injustice by attempting to do so. Therefore I record their statements in and of themselves and let people listen for themselves.

Q. In that sense, sir, then by trying to summarize what

Mr. Looking Cloud has said you are doing him an injustice, would you agree?

A. No.

Q. Because you could in no way remember everything he said, could you?

A. I am sorry.

Q. Because you could in no way remember everything he said, could you?

A. I guess I could say I agree.

Q. Did Arlo tell you that it was a .38 pistol?

A. Yes.

Q. And that he is the one who had the gun and handed it to John Boy, that's what you are telling us?

A. He told me that he handed the gun to John Boy.

Q. How many times did he tell you that?

A. Out of, using a percentage, I would say probably about sixty to seventy percent of the time.

Q. What he really told you, sir, was he was going over to Troy Lynn's to meet Joe Morgan?

A. I am sorry.

Q. What he really told you was he was going over to Troy

Lynn's to meet Joe Morgan that night, didn't he tell you that?

A. No.

Q. When he got there Theda asked him to drive to Rapid

City, did he tell you that?

A. No.

Q. And when he got to Rapid City he stayed at an abandoned apartment, did he tell you that?

A. No.

Q. And that he went when he was in Rapid City and met up with a friend by the name of Tony Red Cloud, did he tell you that?

A. No.

Q. Never heard of the name Tony Red Cloud? A. I didn't say that.

Q. Did you ever hear the name Tony Red Cloud from Arlo?

A. I have heard the name, but I haven't heard it from Arlo.

Q. And that they went down to Rosebud, he tell you that?

A. No, he didn't tell me he went to Rosebud with Tony Red Cloud.

Q. I didn't ask you if he went to Rosebud with Tony Red Cloud.

A. You had a couple questions together, I couldn't differentiate.

Q. Arlo told you he went to Rosebud, is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. This vehicle was stopped out on the road and John Boy took Ms. Pictou-Aquash out of the vehicle, he told you that, didn't he?

A. No.

Q. And Theda told him to follow, or John Boy told him to come along, he told you that, didn't he?

A. I am sorry, your questions aren't really clear to me.

Can you restate the last question?

Q. What's unclear about the last question?

A. I didn't understand it.

Q. Did Arlo tell you that John Boy took Ms. Pictou-Aquash out of the vehicle?

A. No.

Q. And that John Boy then walked her up to the edge of an embankment, and either Theda or John Boy told Arlo to come along, he tell you that?

A. No.

Q. And that when Ms. Pictou-Aquash was executed it was a complete surprise to him, did he tell you that?

A. He told me that.

Q. He told you that when she was shot it was a complete surprise to him?

A. Yes.

Q. Why would it be a complete surprise to somebody that a person was shot if he supposedly is handing the other guy the gun?

A. That depends on which time we had the conversation and which question, and how he changes in, his responses variate.

Q. It does, and that's why I have asked you where these conversations have taken place, and what he said during these conversations. So now which conversation was it that he told you this was a surprise when Ms. Pictou-Aquash was killed?

A. I couldn't say.

Q. How many times did he say that to you?

A. I would say about thirty to forty percent of the time.

Q. Well, how many conversations are we talking about so we can get a sense of how many times?

A. I think I stated earlier six, possibly a dozen.

Q. And the last conversation you had with him was where?

A. At my house in Denver.

Q. Who was present?

A. One of my sons might have been present.

Q. What did Arlo say and what did you say?

A. I think we are probably just talking about what was

going to happen with this case, and if anything was going to develop and what have you.

Q. Well, did he tell you anything about the event that night?

A. No, not at this stage.

Q. So this is one of the twelve conversations you are talking about?

A. Or more. I mean I have known Arlo my whole life, and he conversations, and so what you are suggesting doesn't make

sense to me.

Q. Is this funny to you, sir?

A. No, you are funny to me.

Q. I am, likewise.

A. I am sorry.

MR. RENSCH: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Redirect.

MR. McMAHON: No, sir.

THE COURT: Thank you, you may step down. Call your

next witness.